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One of the biggest challenges of the climate crisis is power. How do we harness it, store it, use it and most importantly, make it more sustainable.

Engineers have been creating fantastic solutions in power, but storing it is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome. Today we hear from an Irish engineer who is actively responding with some very clever solutions.

Our guest has worked with decarbonization at EU level and is leading his own social enterprise that creates energy storage solutions for homes, farms and small businesses. He is co-founder and Director of Range Therapy Eamon Stack. 

 

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

  • A new way of thinking about power supply and storage
  • Second life batteries and how they can be utilised
  • Using battery stored power in buildings, businesses, farms and home
  • Creating a circular recycling programme for batteries in Europe
  • Storing wind and solar power in batteries for cost effective power

 

GUEST DETAILS
Eamon Stack is an award-winning serial social entrepreneur. He co-founded Range Therapy in 2020, responding to the climate change crisis by focusing on reducing energy emissions, one of the big three human causes. Range Therapy offers second-life EV battery packs to upgrade older EVs and to offer substantial energy storage solutions at an affordable price for homes, farms and small businesses.

Eamon’s background is in software engineering, with 35 years development experience in the nonprofit sector. He was founder and former CEO at ENCLUDE for 18 years. This charity is focused on building the ICT capacity of the Irish Charity Sector.

 

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/  

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

 

QUOTES

After high powered use of a battery in a car for 15 or 20 years, they have another 20 years of life available to them as energy storage. - Eamon Stack

That's what's wonderful about the transition from an energy system where we just burn and waste fossil fuels to one that is perfectly circular and completely sustainable. This is really very good news for everybody in the system. - Eamon Stack

The Environmental Protection Agency might view a second life battery out of a car as a hazardous waste. That's a problem we need to deal with, this is a national asset. - Eamon Stack

It's a whole new world, and it's an exciting new world where there's a potential. The Holy Grail here is storage, we make tons of power, where can we store it at a price that makes sense. - Eamon Stack

 

KEYWORDS

#batteries #energy #cars #electric #engineers #grid #power #recycling #sustainability

 

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

 

Dusty Rhodes  00:01

Right now on AMPLIFIED, we find out how one engineer is fighting climate change by putting car batteries into buildings.

 

Eamon Stack  00:07

It's a whole new world and it's an exciting new world where there's a potential. You know, the Holy Grail here is storage. We make tons of power, where can we store it at a price that makes sense?

 

Dusty Rhodes  00:19

Hi there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal podcast. Three human causes are driving the change in our climate and as the people who design the future how engineers think about these causes is playing a vital role in the climate crisis solution. Today we're looking at one of those causes energy emission and speaking with an Irish engineer who is actively responding with some very, very clever solutions. He has worked at EU level creating a decarbonisation pathway with the ENCLUDE organization. And today, his Kildare based social enterprise helps extend the life of electric car batteries along with energy storage solutions for homes, farms and small businesses. It's a pleasure to welcome the co founder and director of Range Therapy, Eamon Stack, Eamon, how are you?

 

Eamon Stack  01:09

Great, delighted to be here Dusty and this is such an exciting moment, I think people would be interested in in this.

 

Dusty Rhodes  01:19

Listen, let's set the scene first, because we're all used to cars running on batteries at this stage. But with climate change and sustainability, front of mind in engineering design. Can you tell me more about Second Life batteries?

 

Eamon Stack  01:32

Yeah, I think this is something we might have missed that when we put you know, the Irish objective is to put a million electric cars on the road. Now the deadline was a little bit too soon, you know, half our cars, but to put to decarbonize transport, we need electric cars, there are brilliant engineering solution to the problem. People don't quite realize that yet. But what happens at the end of time, so every year at the minute, we're putting 20,000 electric cars on the road. And what happened to 20,000 batteries at the end of that life, the assumption was that they would go to recycling. But after a high powered use of a battery in a car for 15 or 20 years, they have another 20 years of life available to them as energy storage. And of course, that's the national problem. How do you store electricity, it's really expensive. We can't build more hydro electrics, we can't do the more pump Hydros. Like Turlock Hale, making hydrogen is a solution. It's it's very difficult and expensive and huge losses. But if we have batteries, and we own them already, why not use them to store our energy?

 

Dusty Rhodes  02:35

So what you're saying is we get 20 years life out of a battery that's in a car. But once that's done, there's another 20 years of life in that, how does it work? Well,

 

Eamon Stack  02:46

the car yeah, when you put down the accelerator in the car, you're demanding, you know, but 100 kilowatts of power from from a battery. And when you're charging at you might even be charging at 100 kilowatts, that's a heavy power node. And after 15 years, the lithium ion batteries tend to just get a bit tired of that high powered environment. But if you put them in a domestic setting, and better still, in a backup setting, there's very little power. So in a house, you put on the kettle under three kilowatts. And when you're charging overnight, you're charging at three or six kilowatts, it's a light load, you might use the analogy, it's a very happy retirement Pro, for a very valuable battery pack.

 

Dusty Rhodes  03:27

So you're also saying that because you're saying that they're talking about kettles, and houses and stuff like that, that they don't just necessarily are used with cars, but this second life can be adapted to buildings.

 

Eamon Stack  03:38

That's right, yes, for domestic energy storage for small enterprise storage. And then of course, for backup, I mean, traditionally, you would have a diesel or petrol generator as your electrical backup. And it's that that has to be kept maintained and running. Whereas if you had a solid state battery there as in its, if not no moving parts, it will sit there and hold the charge for years and will turn on instantly. That's the beauty of it, that you know, the power is available instantly. And then you move from that from you know, from centers. I remember credit unions talking about this, that they have legal obligations to have backup systems and then farms and hospitals so you know, these battery packs are invaluable. Or even I'm

 

Dusty Rhodes  04:21

thinking at festivals or if you're out for a walk in the park or whatever and you're you've you've got a van there the student fast food costs things like generators government, ruining your Paki day kind of kind of absolutely isn't that situation is just you have

 

Eamon Stack  04:33

your battery and we have that we call it the range trainer. You can pull it up, and it has lots of power and then you bring it home at night and charge it up for cheap. So it's much cheaper than the you know the litres of fuel that are used by a coffee shop. I think we were still about five times cheaper for the actual business. And then we have we were at the electric picnic and kind of thank God wouldn't it be great to change the diesel electric picnic to a real electric picnic where they're not using Isn't generators for power?

 

Dusty Rhodes  05:02

We'd show them kids a thing or two. Yes. But listen, I mean, it's great thinking about, you know, kind of vans or or houses or residential houses, can this solution actually be scaled up? How big can it go?

 

Eamon Stack  05:14

Well, if you think about the numbers of cars, so we've, we put 100,000 new cars on the road every year. So if we were putting 100,000 electric cars on the road every year, which we should be doing within 20 years, that means there's 100,000 batteries coming off the road every year. That's massive storage, like megawatts of storage, that that can be available. And we need to get that then into our energy ecosystem or National Energy ecosystem needs to program in how these these batteries are coming out of cars. And they're coming out two ways. It's surprising how many cars we crash that get written off, hopefully with nobody hearts. So we got a whole lot of batteries from from crashed cars, but then end of life cars and just say, Okay, here's a system now, where whereby we have 100,050 kilowatt hour storage units, which can give power at 100 megawatts, or 100 kilowatts each, like really powerful machines. And we have them available for our ecosystem, until we build, you know, a common wait for larger storages to put them in containers. And so you've got units of containers, and you build up a massive storage thing. So that the challenge the engineering challenge, is to plan this, this is going to happen anyway, let's learn how to do it and do it well, and do it safely and compliant. And then at the end of the cycle, so you have your new battery pack, then you have 20 years of that pack in the car, then you've got 20 years of storage, and then you have 98% recycling of all that material for a new battery pack. So you've got a perfect energy, circular economy. And we need to work this

 

Dusty Rhodes  06:57

out. And we're going with sustainability, the app completely sustainable model. Tell me a little bit about 98% recycling, how cuz? Well,

 

Eamon Stack  07:06

one of the great things about lithium batteries is the metals are in the batteries, and very light compounds are not complex. So you have two types of lithium batteries, you have the nickel based ones so that on the cathode side, you've got nickel, manganese, and cobalt. But there are three very valuable metals. And cobalt, lithium would be premium metals within the European Union that they want to preserve. But nickel is very valuable. So that's one sort of batteries. And then the other batteries are LFPS lithium iron phosphate batteries. And again, we wanted to get the lithium and the iron and reuse it. And then on the anode side of batteries, it's just carbon, it's just graphite. And again, most graphite is made in China now, because it's, it's not the cleanest of processes. So it seems logical, you keep all that stuff in Europe. And once we have it, we keep it and recycle it. And that's what's wonderful about the transition from an energy system where we just burn and waste fossil fuels to one that is perfectly circular, and completely sustainable. This is a really very good news for everybody in the system. And that's what we're on to promote. Now,

 

Dusty Rhodes  08:16

there is balance and everything there's good in this band is ying and yang. And everything you say about the batteries we're using today are good, what are the disadvantages of today's batteries?

 

Eamon Stack  08:26

I mean, the problem is they use a lot of resources to make them so we you know, Ireland needs to make enough batteries for 2 million cars isn't really no one. Yeah, I think it's 2 million cars we have on the road. So we need to make all those batteries. So there is an A cost a carbon cost of making the batteries, that's a negative. But that is completely offset by the fact that they can be completely recycled. So once we mined them once, we don't need to keep doing that. And once we get the manufacturing process, but the alternative is a filthy process of taking oil, heavy oil out of the ground, and then invest, you know, huge energy is required to crack oil and take and break it into its components. So the analysts say that the comparison and energy wise is about 400% better. So the electric electric car, for instance, will be 400% cheaper than the alternative and therefore it's not perfect, but at least it's subsidized four times better than the other. They sound

 

Dusty Rhodes  09:25

amazing. And I wanted to ask you about this because there are other types of batteries that are being developed those solid state batteries and then there's sodium ion batteries, what are you able to tell us about them and the advantages and disadvantages.

 

Eamon Stack  09:37

Solid State batteries the the attractiveness was to take the liquid electrolyte out of the battery, which is a volatile component. And in theory that's possible and they've made it for small devices. However they for scaling it they're having difficulties so so it's in process we might see in five or maybe 10 years time, if they can perfect it and get it onto the market. And then the advantage of solid state is they can charge very fast. That's the idea, maybe four times faster than the the equivalent lithium ion battery. So that's that's what they're going for. But I always say to people be very careful of products in development, because you don't know what's going to happen. And then when when, you know, when I was younger engineer, we were looking at, you know, is battery cars the way future? is hydrogen cars the way future or is there something else that's going to come 25 years on you realize hydrogen is a complete dud. It's a complete non engineering disaster. But But that's so it was it looked good 30 years ago, it's absolutely ridiculous solution today. So that's that in time you tell, what's the good news is there's this British engineer, John, good enough, is a key inventor of both the nickel based lithium batteries and the art based he did both of them. It's quite an extraordinary story and got a Nobel Prize with others, you know, to get credit for that. So there are dangers last year, but like these batteries are perfectly adequate. They have matured to a level now technology that are absolutely perfectly adequate for what we need. Every year. There's small improvements. Now it but essentially, the the energy density is at a point where it does everything we need.

 

Dusty Rhodes  11:20

I'm wondering how we can scale this up to engineering size? Because a lot of people you talk to you. I mean, they're dealing with wind generation and water generator power. I mean, that's a lot of power. I mean, is this solution of using old batteries entered to store that power? I mean, what are the problems of making that happen? And how can we get over them?

 

Eamon Stack  11:38

Yeah, it's like it's part of the solution in terms of gigawatts of power and gigawatts of storage. You're a long way from that. Okay, so that's where possibly hydrogen,

 

Dusty Rhodes  11:48

is it possible is the first thing? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

 

Eamon Stack  11:51

But it's a major contribution, because it's going to scale anyway, like, we're going to put 2 million electric cars on our roads. That's, that's in process. And we also have lots of batteries and other applications, and therefore they will be available. It's the key engineering challenge here is to take full advantage of them in a safe way, and make sure we get the maximum value out of these things. Like we could start from a point where the the environmental protection agency might view a second life battery out of car as a hazardous waste. Like that's a problem we need to deal with. Where we need to get to is this is a national asset. And that's where the engineers need to take it away from the EPA and says, Don't Don't, don't don't these really valuable entities for us. And yeah, that's the I think your point and scaling is important. There's a certain limit to it, it might get up to a gigawatt of storage. But we would need more than that the you know, we use 10 gigawatt hours a day or whatever in our lives. We use, we use a lot, but it's significant.

 

Dusty Rhodes  12:54

And one of the things that I learned in one of our other interviews was with wind stories, they said they can store stuff in batteries. But how long does it stay stored in the battery for? Well, I mean, can you belong to a battery in a long time? Yeah, no,

 

Eamon Stack  13:10

no, I figured it wouldn't be lost. There'd be 10% loss in the process of putting it in and taking it out. But in terms of storage, no, no, I think it is a battery pack. We've seen them sitting there for a year and very listen to her. So it's great. It's great storage.

 

Dusty Rhodes  13:25

And what have you heard that about grid scale? battery storage systems? Has anybody tried it?

 

Eamon Stack  13:30

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's two systems. One is like the leaders in that are Tesla saying an example. It's fairly in California. So they have these huge mega packs. So they have, you know, 400 megawatts of storage in a center? Right? So that's one What about the storage and it's really successful, because it instantly responds to grid demand. So this is the thing, stability in the grid is as important as the power. And this thing can instantly respond. And they've done the same in in South Australia, where there was this famous project where Tesla said, we'll do it in 100 days, or we give you your money back. And they did it they built a 250 megawatt storage in South Australia. And that solves that grid problem. And they couldn't believe the return on investment was massive. So it's this has been done in quite a few places. So that's one way to do it. Large storage units. I think it was recently one installed in the UK as well. The other thing then is in Tesla has these domestic storage units, they call them Tesla Powerwalls. So they will be 1020 kilowatt hours of storage, but then network them in us in California. And so they have this software called Ultra bitter and and the Automator is bidding for power to buy and sell power. And it has customers 1000s and 1000s of customers who have signed up to this VPP virtual power plant and so whenever the grid needs power instantly that can turn on these domestic units. So you have the large storage units. And then you've got the network small networks are of 1000s of units. And this is live, this is working. This is this is the future. So when we're installing battery storage in a domestic setting or a small business setting, our medium term objective is to network all them together. So that we will be able to trade with the ESB and say, we've got 1050 kilowatt hours of storage. More importantly, we've got power available to you instantly, so that if the grid needs stability, we can provide that both at a micro grid and local grid area and more nationally,

 

Dusty Rhodes  15:47

you kind of lead me on to another thing that I've heard about this is vehicle to grid V to G. And it's a kind of a smaller version of it, where it's the cars are drawing power, of course, when they're charging up, but then when you plug them in at night, the computer is able to figure out that well, you know, you're not going to use that much power tomorrow or based on your usage or whatever. So it's putting power back into the grid Have I got that right?

 

Eamon Stack  16:10

That's the same thing. That's the same thing, then as a as a virtual power plant where you are the cars are plugged in. And then you choose you say, Okay, I'm using my car tomorrow for this distance. And so I need this most power, so you can have some of the rest. And sometimes they only have a small bit of power, they just need it available. So currently in the UK, this has been piloted by octopus energy. So it's not far away, where they're actually piloting. And this will become standard, I think, where where cars will be plugged in with less on the US affecting is that a lot of school buses. So they're transitioning school buses to VPPs, whereby they're becoming you know, electric school bus is sitting there out there doing nothing. And there are power source for the grid. So it's a whole new worlds. And it's an exciting new worlds where there's a potential. And the you know, the Holy Grail here is storage, we make tons of power, where can we store it at a price, that makes sense. And so if you have 2 million cars on the road, well, that's a storage bank that is massive. And then if you have all these Second Life, batteries in houses, and whatever you build up. So that's where I think we need to design our future grid. With this in mind, this is now the door has opened for us. And we're in the sense leading the way but by actually doing this.

 

Dusty Rhodes  17:27

So that's amazing. So instead of energy, going into a car in the form of electricity, batteries, or even petrol, or whatever it happens to be, it becomes a transactional thing. So the car kind of goes well, I'm going to need this, I'm going to run out of whatever storage so I'm going to put this back into the system while I still have it done. It's mind blowing Amon, but

 

Eamon Stack  17:46

there's something more significant here. So you know, you listen to you know, there's a lot of negativity about electric cars from sources, which are probably the the oil companies themselves, they don't like this change, it's going to cost them a lot of money. However, think about it. They say I'm from carry right carry has 1000s of wind turbines generating power. So at night, there is a tons of energy available at night. So all carry transport could be powered by carry energy. At almost no cost to the system, it's already there. The impetus generating capacity is there, the infrastructure is there. Imagine that transitioning from importing fuel, mostly from Saudi Arabia to power or transport to using our own energy is that a shocking thing in terms of macroeconomics, stop importing stuff that is dirty and polluting, and a problem for us, let's use our own energy to power our own lives. And I tell you, this hasn't happened since 100 years ago, this summer, when I don't know if you know, this guy, Thomas McLaughlin arrived home and in summer holidays from Siemens in Germany, 100 years. And he approached the Irish government and said, My company is interested in building the world's biggest hydroelectric plant in your, in Ireland on the Shannon. And what we're also going to build the first national electric grid. And they did that between 1924 and opened in 1929. mega project, we were energy independent with sustainable energy in 1929. And it was, I just love the visionary stuff of that to say, let's see, let's see what is possible for Ireland. And in that case, they took Ireland which was a small, you know, many, many little micro grids that were very dodgy to transform Ireland and to have 100% power generated from art and a crusher and and to build the first national grid, which of course, we should be very proud of, because it's still an outstanding grid. And that grid today has capacity as wind capacity that we don't use as much as a terror. terawatt hour, enough energy we don't use Every year to power Galway for two years, that's how much energy we don't use. Let's learn harvest that. So we're in terms of the individual households where this has an effect is there is energy at night, as cheap as five cents a unit. And daytime energy is 35 cents a unit. So if I can fill up a battery with five cent electricity at night, my ASP bell goes down fivefold. And this is not imaginary. This is actually the economic reality of today. And as we expand our wind turbine infrastructure, surely in the middle of the night, the price electricity can only go one direction, and lectures to be really cheap. So as a nationalist strategy, this is is absolutely fantastic. And that's the story I want to say to people, we, we really need to stop purchasing, polluting energy sources from Saudi Arabia, they have enough money, they don't need our money when we need to. And it makes next macro economic financial sense and of course domestic financial sense. And it is the pathway to dealing with our co2 emissions, which I'm told we're going to be fined a billion a year from 2030. If we don't resolve this issue. Well,

 

Dusty Rhodes  21:26

listen. So you've been talking about what we did 100 years ago, here we are today, there is a brilliant solution, the one you're talking about is one of a number of brilliant solutions. And they're all there. Is Ireland actually implementing any of these new technologies. I mean, it should engineers be be thinking about this and starting to get these things into their designs. No,

 

Eamon Stack  21:45

absolutely. I think lots of engineers are involved in this. The ESB is a bit of a dinosaur, it's difficult to move, they might have done some of this planning 20 years ago, but at least they're doing it now. You know, we're introducing renewables, the national strategy, and I heard a presentation and the engineer Ireland conference last year, you know, on the, you know, the ESP is national strategy. So it is offshore wind would be the primary source of energy, and they're building the motorway to find it may be a civil engineering project. But ultimately, it's going to a port that is going to allow us install a massive capacity of energy in the Atlantic, wherever there's tons of energy. So we're doing this, our best is in terms of when you're generating that energy, one place we can store it is this new resource that we might have missed? We might have seen and that is the you know, like you said, the vehicle to Grid Electric Car storage. But also then the second life of those batteries in other stories, domestic and business energy storage.

 

Dusty Rhodes  22:48

Yeah. And even though we're talking about cars, this can equally be applied to buildings, you just look as a building as a big car that doesn't go anywhere. That's right. So absolutely. If you think that way, well, the same principles apply, don't they? Yes. So

 

Eamon Stack  23:01

kind of give you an example here where we've been talking to farmers to dairy farmers, there's 18,000 of them milking at peak time for energy at in the evening. So if you if they can purchase that energy, really cheap in the middle of the night, and use that to power their portrait milking parlor that would save themselves between 10 and 20,000 euros a year. And the batteries are there, we figure for an average dairy farmer about 8080 cows, they would need 80 kilowatt hours of storage. That's it a pollster, battery pack, and we have lots of them. So we were already working with designing a system to go into dairy farms. The scale is 18,000 Farms.

 

Dusty Rhodes  23:48

When I'm looking at your website, range therapy, I mean, you've got some great pictures that really give an example of what it is that you do. And basically kind of you you convert a trailer that somebody can carry around behind their food van or the car or whatever it happens to be or, or whatever. How can you scale that? Have you scaled that up then so that it's more than just a trailer? Have you actually installed this system into into buildings?

 

Eamon Stack  24:11

So we know if we the trailer is the mobile version, and then the static versus the range was the house one so we've done 10 houses, we've done houses. And so it's interesting then for people listening to say is compliance is a huge issue here and what has slowed us down. So what we have done over the last few years is we have upgraded at nearly 100 cars with batteries that came out of crashed cars that were bigger than the old batteries in the car. So we swapped out the old small battery for a bigger battery from a crashed car surprised me how many crash car so now we've accumulated all those batteries, but we weren't willing to install them in a domestic setting until all the engineering compliance stuff was resolved. So one of the issues was that if you have a battery pack When something goes wrong, you want the control system to have the ability to turn it off, to intervene before it moves down. Because all engineers would know the ultimate danger of a lithium ion pack is thermal runaway. So if the, if it gets hot, it gets extremely hot and will cause a serious fire. However, once you have the battery management system that monitors that battery pack, it just turns it off before that ever happens. And so for instance, the oldest production electric car is in this leaf. And there has never ever been a thermal issue with a Nissan LEAF in nearly a million units in 1000s of crashes. And that's because the battery management system turned it off before it went down that route. So in terms of putting them into houses, we had to make sure we could do exactly the same thing that we would get the data from the battery management system and our control unit, and then have the capacity to turn the battery off. If there's any deviation from from the key thermo are voltage values. Can you

 

Dusty Rhodes  26:01

give me a sample of one of the houses that you've installed the system into and just kind of give me an idea of of how it worked and the problems you had to get over and the and then the solutions you came up with and how it's benefited that the house?

 

Eamon Stack  26:14

Yes, our first installation was in in Cary. And it was a new built house that had a air source heat pump. So it was completely electrical house in it. And it's very passive. So the thing we needed was to make sure that the saw a solar system was installed by a local company and Gilroy energy and carry, and that the inverter they used to invert the AC DC, the DC to AC energy for the solar had to have the capacity for the voltage of the battery pack. So cars generally use 400 volt systems. And therefore the inverter had to be able to handle the battery. So we were able to intervene and say we need this particular inverter, which is an Austrian Fronius inverter that can handle 400 volts in that case. And that was the only intervention, then we went to the house and we had to find the location for the battery pack. So it's kind of 1.6 meters by one meters, 350 kilos, 350 kilos,

 

Dusty Rhodes  27:15

you're not taking that on a plane.

 

Eamon Stack  27:18

So so so that looked like they were building a shed with the house. And so we located the battery in the shed. And then with the challenge was to wire the cables from the battery pack into the inverter. So it turned out to be a 40 meter journey, we thought it'd be much shorter. So that was one of the more challenging ones, 40 meters of cables. So you've got the power cables, and then you've got the data and control cables going. And then beside the inverter, we put our control box. So the owner of that house after we went back after a couple of months, and he said to us, he's an accountant, and he said, This is extraordinary. He said, I don't pay for any electricity. I don't pay for any oil or gas because I heat my house with electricity. And I sell electricity back to the grid and get a free pint every day. He said that's a good deal by any accountancy terms.

 

Dusty Rhodes  28:12

Do you know it's a pity this is an audio podcast because I really want to stand up and applaud you aim. And that's that's just brilliant. And as you say, the challenge now is to kind of take that now from that size. And to adapt it to I'm gonna say skyscrapers just for the for the sake, how can engineers that listening now and kind of gone? This is a really good idea? How can they better educate clients, or even around bosses about the benefits and proper maintenance of battery systems?

 

Eamon Stack  28:41

Yeah, I think we need one of the factors that limited the deployment of battery electric technology with the cost. And now we've found that we actually already have Irish batteries, we don't manufacture them, but we have lots of them that are very low cost, so that we can overcome that problem. So what you need then is the compliance stuff. So you just need so I have a friend was asking me about it in his house. And then he stopped and said, I have a dental practice that we use a very significant amount of energy during the day. He said, Could you put a battery into my dental practice? And he said, I don't own the building, we rent the building. So I might want to put solar panels up or whatever. But it says can you put a battery in the backyard so that it charges up during the night or whatever? And I said No problem. No, you know, it might be six to eight grand to power the operation, maybe 50 to 80 kilowatt hours of storage. But I said that is actually no problem. In fact, having a Kia Soul battery battery we already have that will be perfect for your child. So that's it it's just a matter of being able to use it now one thing interesting, dusty as well, from an engineering point of view, you might be tempted to break up a battery pack to make it in the format you want or the voltages you want. But actually if you can use The batteries already certified for automotive grades use in there, you have a very high quality certified unit. And so there's a huge advantage of just keeping the battery pack, taking it straight out of the car in its case, and using the battery pack as is. So that's part of a very good strategy. And that's what they do with containers that take the physical battery packs out of the cars and put them on shelves, and then connect them together, that that's the best way to do it. Best strategy. One

 

Dusty Rhodes  30:28

last question for you, because you said the C word not me. Compliance? Where do we stand with getting the authorities to rubber stamp and approve these things?

 

Eamon Stack  30:36

Yeah, so so this is well, well down the road here, the EU has looked at this. And in terms of cars, they have done something that was a little surprising, but sensible. When you're now scrapping an electric car, the car has to be split between the traditional carpet and the battery pack. So the battery pack has to go down a different recycling routes. And then at that point, the EU has recognized the second use of batteries is if it's is growing industry, a really important industry. So they've allowed that space. And they have defined then the some of the requirements that are needed. So a automotive battery has a battery management system. And it's got a metric called the state of health. So what they're saying is that the battery has to be better than 50% state of health to be usable in a domestic setting. And then after that it's essentially end of life and ready for recycling. So what what we what we have introduced that in our system is this monitoring system of the state of health of our batteries. And so that's locally available. And it's also now we're building an external server to monitor all our batteries. So that once they approach the end of life, then we will take them out, send them to recycling and then replace them with similar units. So that's what's important that in terms of compliance that we are not alone, are we aware of this, but we actually have systems in place that can deal with batteries that fall below 50% state of health.

 

Dusty Rhodes  32:07

Somebody is listening today and they want to find out more and dig a little bit deeper from an engineering perspective, where would you suggest they go? Are there any particular websites or books or Yeah, Netflix or right?

 

Eamon Stack  32:17

Yeah, no, read sarpy.org our sites is probably a good place to go. Again, it's relatively new. So people are just going to have to try engineer Ireland's podcasts that might be an interesting podcast. They're like to see more articles in the journal and so on. So that's it's a new world. And we're beginning to see,

 

Dusty Rhodes  32:45

I do have to say that and I would recommend it because you're not like a limited company and for profit kind of a thing. You're a social enterprise social enterprise, you have social enterprise, okay. So it's more important, what you're doing as the profit side of it, so to speak. And I found that with the website, which is range therapy.org, where you go, that there's a lot of actual genuine information that you can find out about what Amon is doing. And it's not like it's not a hard sell kind of a website, like sign up here. Blah, blah, blah, whatever. Like, you know, there's a lot of really good information on that. So I definitely recommend the link to Ames website is in the description area of this podcast. So just click on that. And away you go with it. There's an amen. Is there anything else that we'd like to add in? Or any final thoughts you want to share with us today? Yeah,

 

Eamon Stack  33:31

I think in order to develop winning engineering resources into that we need academic paper to look at it. And we, you know, we need work on the compliance side because those EU regulations haven't yet been implemented and how they're going to be implemented. And we want to make sure that engineers inform how those regulations are implemented, that we don't do something silly and stop ourselves from going down this excellent roofs. So there is also a temptation that there have been recycling plants built that are hungry for batteries. So let's not give into the temptation of giving them our batteries when they have another 20 years of life available to us. So there there's a tension there that we have to live in economic tension where we don't want to be, you know, where you have hungry, new battery recycling systems built, but the supply isn't big enough yet to merit the investment. So the temptation is to give them all the batteries. Don't give away our Irish Batteries, Please, let's use the

 

Dusty Rhodes  34:27

Listen, yeah, we did it 100 years ago, with hydro electricity we can do it again. If you'd like to find out more about Eamon and some of the topics that we talked about today, we have notes and link details in the description area of the podcast as I said, but for now Eamon Stack, engineer, co founder and director at Range Therapy, thank you so much for being an amazing guest today. Thank you,

 

Eamon Stack  34:49

Delighted Dusty thank you indeed.

 

Dusty Rhodes  34:52

If you enjoyed our podcast today, do share with a friend in the business just tell them to search for Engineers Ireland in their podcast player or on YouTube. The podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland, for previous episodes, more information on engineering across the country or career development opportunities, there are libraries of information on the website at engineersireland.ie. Until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes as always, thank you for listening. Take care

 

 

Making Power Go The Distance: Director of Range Therapy, Eamon Stack

The water sector needs the help of engineers to develop plans and innovative solutions for the maintenance of one of our most essential commodities.

Today we hear of all the challenges facing the sector, from inefficient leaky infrastructure to an urgent focus on sustainability thanks to the rapidly changing climate.

Our guest has been a leader in this area for 25 years since founding his company in Loughrea, and has had success not just here in Ireland but across Europe and to the USA. He is Group Managing Director of Glanua, Karl Zimmerer.

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

  • Working with water as a valuable resource and commodity
  • The history of Glanua and the group MD’s career path
  • Innovation to meet customer needs and regulatory standards
  • Balancing supply, sanitation and sustainability in improving treatment plants
  • Where to improve water knowledge as an interested engineer

 

GUEST DETAILS
Karl Zimmerer is Group Managing Director of Glanua. Karl has over 25 years experience in the design, construction and operation and maintenance of water and wastewater infrastructure throughout Ireland, with over 15 years in a Senior Management position. Karl’s professional qualifications include an Honours Degree in Structural Engineering and a Master Degree in Project Management.

Karl is a founding member of Glanagua LTD and has successfully developed the business into one of the leading companies in the water sector in Ireland, providing a full range of services throughout the industry.

https://ie.linkedin.com/in/karl-zimmerer-4b73a319

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/  

 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

 

QUOTES

It is a very expensive resource that is absolutely essential to life. - Karl Zimmerer

 

It is something that requires a significant level of investment to ensure that that is provided at a certain standard and a lot of governments aren't allocating enough for that. - Karl Zimmerer

 

Innovation is something that we feel very, very passionate about, because innovation can be how you dig the hole, how you construct the tank, it can be about the technology, the pump system, the mortar that drives the pump, water efficiency, setpoint and understanding what the needs are for your customers. - Karl Zimmerer

 

There's absolutely no stupid questions. Don't come to me with questions, come to me with solutions, and just ask me to do I think the solutions are right - Karl Zimmerer

 

KEYWORDS

#water #Ireland #engineering #challenge #wastewater #treatmentplant #sustainability

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, with such an abundance of water literally all around us. Why is the water sector still facing huge engineering problems?

Karl Zimmerer  00:09

You know, it is something that requires a significant level of investment to ensure that that is provided at a certain standards and a lot of governments aren't allocating enough for that.

Dusty Rhodes  00:22

Hi there, my name is Dusty Rhodes. Welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal Podcast. Today we're looking at the key water sector of engineering, which faces all kinds of challenges from inefficient leaky infrastructure to an urgent focus on sustainability, thanks to the rapidly changing climate around us. Our guest has been a leader in this area for 25 years since founding his company in Loughrea, Galway, which has been a huge success not only just here in Ireland, but across Europe and the USA as well. It's a pleasure to welcome and hopefully learn from the group MD of Glenua, Karl Zimmerer, how're you doing, Karl?

Karl Zimmerer  00:56

Great to see. Thanks very much for having me.

Dusty Rhodes  01:01

So listen, tell me I'm sure you've heard of Michael Burry, the man who famously predicted the 2008 crash. He said, after that, he said, right, you know, what I'm going to invest in next is water. He said water will become the most valuable resource on the planet. Would you agree?

Karl Zimmerer  01:17

Absolutely. I think the changing regulations around the standards of particularly drinking water that we have to provide to the populations and society in general, is an ever changing challenge for us. I think the discharges of wastewater to the environment, whether it's to the sea to the receiving rivers and lakes, is an ongoing challenge and continually evolving. So we're lucky we have an abundance of both here in Ireland, but there are certainly other parts of the world where water recycling water reuse are absolutely going to be essential to meet the needs of future society and future generations.

Dusty Rhodes  02:00

Do you think water will ever become a commodity like gold is

Karl Zimmerer  02:06

it is a very expensive commodity, it is a very expensive resource that is absolutely essential to life. And we've had huge debates in Ireland, about that over the last 10 years to 20 years. It takes a lot of investment to maintain an assets that can adequately abstract water from whatever source, treat it to the correct standards, manage the networks, distribution to people's taps, collect their wastewater, convey that wastewater treatment plants, and safely discharged that to the environment where there is no adverse effects. That is a pretty significant cost of providing that essential, critical resource for life. But you know, a lot of other countries value that an awful lot more. We found it in Ireland directly out of central central Exchequer funds, the water utility model is there are loads of versions of it throughout the world. The UK is not very best placed to use as a reference at the moment. But certainly, you know, it is something that requires a significant level of investments to ensure that that is provided at a certain standard. And a lot of governments aren't allocating no farther than

Dusty Rhodes  03:26

pan. It's not exactly like it's something that we can live without this new but you've been working in this area for a long time and with the new as well. Tell me a little bit of that the quick history of the company.

Karl Zimmerer  03:36

Yeah, it's my work career. When I when I qualified in the mid 90s. Back in that time, there was another huge amount of work around I worked for six months for free. My first project was setting out the bottom half of the end 50 for land acquisition and routing and then progressed into civil engineering. My background is structural engineering. How did I get involved in water services? I built a lot of the structures and infrastructure around that in the 90s and noughties. In the early noughties. A lot of the water services projects that were procured were procured based on the specialist disciplines. So the civil engineering contractor was appointed first. The process and mica mechanical electrical instrumentation control contractor or consultant was was a separate appointment to go and deliver whether a water wastewater treatment plant or pipeline project in the late 90s and early noughties, the concept of design, build and operate and maintain came into Ireland driven very much by the significant infrastructure and asset deficit we had. The government realized that they had to bring in contractors who had the design, build and operate and maintain experience because we were bringing in huge new technologies and new systems and processes that were required across the country. So That model of design, build, operate and maintain was introduced. And there was very few contractors, engineering consultants and contractors who had the ability to be able to do the whole range of services around delivering of that design build. So, I was initially involved in an organization that targeted specifically the design, build, operate and maintain market to provide a one stop shop contracting entity, which are the engineering ability to take raw water abstraction through to treatment, storage, distribution, network management. And similarly, the wastewater collecting all the sewage conveying it to wastewater treatment plants, and then safely treating it and discharging it out. So it was driven very much by a need in the industry. And subsequently, when a creator Glen agua in 2007, it was to focus in on the engineering solutions around that whole water cycle. So from the roller abstraction, all the way out to the effluent. And there was a very big need for it at the time. And so we've gone from strength to strength, it's been rebranded in the last couple of years to glenella focused on that whole industrial and municipal water sector.

Dusty Rhodes  06:17

When you look back on everything that you've achieved to date, and you've plenty more to go, which particular projects that you were involved in, kind of stand out in your mind.

Karl Zimmerer  06:29

I look back over my career, and there's been significant project milestones that ultimately led to it, whether it be the rural water sector and the DB or bundles, which those water treatment plants dosti had significant challenges in the country and for Ireland inky as well, where there was a huge range of raw water sources that require process engineering, to be adapted to cater for those specific requirements. The rural water sector is a phenomenal part of the country where these this groups gain sector provide huge portions of the country we treated water historically, but subsequently as as we progressed into Klonoa, since 2007, again, is is identifying some of those range of services that can really meet the needs of society. And we've undertaken quite a lot of of bundled regional water treatment plants or number of water treatments within one contract for whole counties where we would operate the acids and the challenges around that and dealing with with the local authority, but from the process engineering, the hydraulic and mechanical, electrical instrumentation, control and automation, that experience which in Ireland, we've a unique set of challenges. We've a lot of groundwater with our surface water. We've karst limestone regions, which on the west coast of Ireland, where a lot of that surface water infiltrates into pristine groundwater, which makes the water very difficult to treat, because it varies quite substantially. Okay, that led to as the business grew, we expanded into the UK, but we had a very unique project that all of their competency said led us to a position where we had a had a requirement to upgrade to very large Watership plans in the northwest of London, where they had pristine backhoe for sources that had very little treatment requirement. But a tunnel boring machine to construct the high speed rail line from London to Birmingham was going to tunnel right through the center of this aquifer and create quite high risk to the safety of the trees of the RO water source. But based on our experience of the west of Ireland, Charis limestone and understanding the the range of impacts that can happen to groundwater sources arising out of a pollutants, which would be the bentonite slurry associated with tunnel boring machines, but also also surface water infiltration allowed our engineering team come up with the absolute fit for purpose solution to provide an upgrade to those treatment plans to ensure that there will save water provided for the customers that water company and what was the solution? It was a mixture of membrane technology which is very advanced treatment to provide a barrier to quite elevated levels of particularly turbidity and other solids that that could arise out of it. It was a no no on this is not something that has been frequently experience. So having a pristine water of course with a big construction activity going through it. So there was a huge amount of hydrogeological and geotechnical evaluation to understand what those impacts would be to engineer the exact solution. It had to be delivered in an extremely tight timescale because the tunnel boring machine was coming at a particular date. So in engineering that solution, which was very much based in offsite, assembling solutions, designed for manufacture or assembly, that whole digital construction piece was the only way to operate these plants within the timescale and extremely tight footprints. So that was the probably headline project that a lot of our experience over the years don't see lead. Having that perfect capacity.

Dusty Rhodes  10:21

You strike me as a man who relishes a challenge, and then coming up with a unique solution for it. And I also know as well, from looking at your website, that you have an innovation center in Navin, what exactly is it that you innovate there,

Karl Zimmerer  10:36

there's a understanding the needs of your customers, and to ensure that you stay ahead of the regulatory drivers that are requiring an awful lot of the water cheap metal grids can involve having cutting edge technology solutions that will deal with the sort of pee fast is a very topical thing that you hear from the states that's now coming into the Ireland in the UK, which is the sometimes characterize these forever chemicals. So understanding the range of treatment capabilities to be able to deal with those type of pollutants and in in your treatment plants is something that we're looking at quite actively, but innovation can be the cutting edge technologies that we're looking at, but also simply for doing things more efficiently. And, you know, the membrane technology I refer to when that and that project is often more regularly used in wastewater treatment, but can equally be applied in drinking water treatment, which was the first time that it had been done in that type of scenario. So innovation is something that we feel very, very passionate about, because innovation can be how you dig the hole, how you construct the tank, it can be both the technology, the pump system, the motor that drives the pump, water efficiency, setpoint and understanding what the needs are for your customers. One thing that's quite topical to see at the moment around the whole sustainability side is is we have prepared, we've upgraded a wastewater treatment plant for a small town and southwest of the country. And we have a full compliant, very, very efficient wastewater treatment plant. And we have presented its exact replica of that same Wastewater Treatment Plant achieving the net zero outcomes. Now, the challenge for us as an engineering solutions provider, but also our client is that plant will cost x and it will deliver it that net zero carbon solution will cost x multiply by three. So we have this constant challenge around that innovation piece as well as understanding where we're going as an industry. Do we want the net zero carbon today? Because if we do it's going to cost an awful awful lot more than what the current regulatory drivers require for that particular acid breakdown. So

Dusty Rhodes  13:02

how do you strike that balance then between call Stan and thinking of the future and making that investment now,

Karl Zimmerer  13:09

we've we've engaged quite a lot with the water utilities in the water companies in the UK, again, that's that's very topical at the moment are on their their funding challenges and half wash a green at certain rates, they can charge the customers and whether that allows them formed adequately their investment is, is offset against a what the regulator wants them to achieve, but be they're all committed to achieving net zero goals as is shared in Ireland and doing some phenomenal pieces of engineering. But that costs a huge amount to do all of the water companies inish Garin is probably doing probably some of the best work of what we're experiencing right now are need to invest to get their assets to a particular standard. And that's their core investment deliverable at this moment in time to achieve safe drinking water, good wastewater treatment to ensure that there's no pollutants and develop those assets to be to cater for economic growth and housing, which is very topical in the country here. offset against Well, we would like to have zero energy output over the Tortex evaluation over 10 to 1520 years, is a real difficult balancing act. And it's finding that range of technologies and it may come out to the shopping list where some of the customers and clients will say we we'd like some of that, but we can't afford to do that right now. So it's identifying the right solutions and technologies for the right location. Whether it's a very, very large wastewater treatment plant for 3 million population equivalent in London, or it's a small 500 P village in southwest of Cary. It's it's a very difficult, challenging balancing act for those customers and the regulatory regulators. You mentioned

Dusty Rhodes  15:01

that we're doing quite well in Ireland in relation to water. What Why do you think we are managing so well here?

Karl Zimmerer  15:08

What haven't been involved with here since the 90s. And having upgraded water treatment plants, particularly on in water treatments that were on boil water notices for a long number of years, you know, there was huge negative publicity, you know, particularly at the creation of Arab water knowledge carrying around some of those legacy issues. You don't hear that much anymore. The work that they've done in removing a lot of those risks has been phenomenal. They've done national disinfection programs to ensure that all of the water producing assets have sufficient disinfection to ensure that the water is safe to drink as it goes out into distribution. There's always going to be challenges, there's always going to be unique circumstances around ageing assets that require interventions to ensure that the water is kept safe and clean. But when you look at where they started from, which was suffering from 20 to 30 to 40 years of underinvestment, that money came from the central essential Exchequer funding. So there was housing that was held, there was schools, were all competing for that central pot of money and coming off to an election dusty, nobody caught a ribbon or a mantle. It was a very good phrase I heard recently. So in the context of of what, what they have achieved and what they've done, have there leaks Absolutely. But they've reduced leaks substantially within areas. And they're dealing with Victoria, your pipelines, which is the exact same as they've done and spent billions in London and Birmingham and Manchester, replacing and we're still in catch up mode, but they've done some really good work, which is often missed, because it's the bad news stories we report on quite a lot more than than an awful lot. The good news stories.

Dusty Rhodes  16:56

Well, it's good to hear somebody speaking positively about it. Where do you think we are at balancing a supply of water along with sanitation, and then of course, keeping sustainability in mind? Well, we're

Karl Zimmerer  17:07

currently working on two of the largest working on upgrades on two of the largest water treatment plants in the Dublin region. On behalf of ich Garin and really doing some really great upgrade works. When you are at the coalface of working on a day to day appears basis with the people who manage the water supply into Dublin, you are in awe of the work they do. It is in such a fine balance of the waters of available water supply from predominantly the Liffey into Dublin compared to the demand that goes out. And all you need is one, one or two shock events, which could be a drought where everybody leaves their garden hoses on and the demand goes through the roof. So balancing, finding, at a macro level, the right solutions, like bringing water from Shannon, it's they have no Ireland and have no choice, we have absolutely no choice we will run out of water, as growth continues in the Dublin region. If they do not continue to invest. Yes, they can continue investing and avoiding leaks. But that is absolutely essential. So in terms of that supply and demand issue, particularly within the Dublin region, it's absolutely essential, it's on a knife edge. And there's some phenomenal work going on to ensure that it's continued. But we will see more holes, pipe bands and things like that into the future, which is commonplace in Paris of London and the UK. And if

Dusty Rhodes  18:33

things are tight, then, you know, kind of integrating sustainability principles must be hugely important to your projects. How do you do that? Well,

Karl Zimmerer  18:42

it's ensuring that we have, you know, one of the projects that we're doing quite a lot now, both in the UK and a number of projects in Ireland is just capturing things like the carbon footprint of the specific assets, whether it's a product or material or anything like that. And it's mapping out is that the most efficient overall carbon footprint solution, but the headline sustainability things is making existing assets last longer and deliver more efficiently. So a challenge for the industry and the sector here and particularly around the water treatment plant and Asset Delivery portfolios is to understand we'd like we'd all like shiny new yes infrastructure, whether it is ensuring that the existing assets there can be upgraded such that they provide sufficient capacity and that that is your biggest bang for your buck in terms of your overall sustainability approach is that whole reuse within the wastewater side obviously the bio resource sector is absolutely massive and and using that there are some other new technologies around hydrogen generation and using the effluent from wastewater treatment plants. So there's a lot of cutting edge work going on. Then with various organizations, though to it to look at that. So it's, it can come down to the smallest pump on the infrastructure to the biggest overall asset. And we've just commissioned a very large watershed event for a significant town or city in in Ireland now, and it is a very, very good project and reference project. To demonstrate where we've upgraded the existing app, we built new streams to increase the overall capacity and performance of that plant, while upgrading the existing infrastructure to ensure that the overall completed project can achieve the necessary outcomes as well as increased capacity and growth. So the whole sustainability and ensuring that our sustainability strategy is aligned with what our customers need is absolutely essential. But it encompasses absolutely everything, the whole life cycle cycle of a project.

Dusty Rhodes  20:57

Can I just ask on behalf of engineers who are listening at the moment? I mean, you You are Mr. Water? Because for the sake of argument, all right, you're right there, you're in it this this is your thing, all right, for engineers who kind of outside of that a little bit, but where water is going to be part of what they need to be thinking about? How should they be changing their thinking, when it comes to water as part of a construction or an infrastructure project?

Karl Zimmerer  21:23

Well, there's two elements to the question there is engineers, if nothing else, demonstrate to prospective employers that they have the ability to learn. So certainly, when you come out of college or university, as I was, as a structural engineer, I know leading a water company, so there's not a direct link, is you need to be very, very flexible in understanding the range of disciplines. So if we take any particular project, within the project lifecycle, you've process engineering, if science scientists use mechanical engineers, electrical instrument to engineers, if ice engineers, if civil engineers have structural engineers, we've engineers, we don't care what your discipline is, but you must be able to understand the overall thing. No, obviously, there's certain specialties in that and specializes in that. But in terms of ensuring how it's embedded within that infrastructure and engineering, across towns and cities and infrastructure projects, it's ensuring that we can use the water and collect the water as efficiently as possible, obviously goes, those are all things that should be no leaks, and things like that. But it just a whole reuse side of things. We do a lot of work for an industrial clients and the farmer with a huge track record and the meat and dairy sector, which are absolute colossal industries in Ireland. And a lot of those companies are now putting in for water reuse solutions in place because the water demand is absolutely colossal, we've we looked at the biggest water users are some of the biggest water users in the UK, of which strangely enough, as you sit down and look at these things, the Ottoman automobile sector in terms of washing vehicles and factories, and that whole industry is absolutely colossal. So they're desperately looking at means of of treating their effluence. But reusing it within the main process for engineering their their cars and cleaning the cars or whatever else that they use it specifically for, but it applies to every sector and every every industry.

Dusty Rhodes  23:30

So if you have that all of a sudden, you know, water is a big part of a project that you have to handle and you need to learn more. Where do you go and learn these things? What's What's your own thing? When you when you're given a challenge? You go and you know, I'm not the world expert. Now, obviously, you don't tell people you're not the world experts? The answer is always yes. And then you go off and you go, Oh, crikey. What do you do to go and make these things happen?

Karl Zimmerer  23:56

But I think it's, you know, whether it's a company or an individual, it's learning, it's it's basically understanding where the industry is going, where where the sector is going, understanding what the, you know, one of the things I mentioned earlier on is P FOSS forever chemicals, you know, so that's very cutting edge there. Now every regulator in the US, it's not yet regulated in the UK and Ireland. It's understanding. So the process engineering solutions around that are not proven yet. So it's very cutting edge technologies. So we collectively as an organization, as a collective individuals have to understand, examine, innovate around what type of engineering solutions that are around that. So it's it's going back to college in certain circumstances. And I don't mean that exactly what it is just opening up the most new technological papers understanding what it means and learning from it.

Dusty Rhodes  24:56

That's exactly what I was trying to find out. Where do you You learn from so it's a it is the latest in technological papers and industry publications, I'm sure you must do a bit of Googling and see what they're doing around the world to talk to colleagues and all those different sorts. It's

Karl Zimmerer  25:11

we we within the organization, here, we have a very active Lunch and Learn process with all our, our graduate program, we believe is probably one of the most robust in the industry in the sector. And as part of that, you know, we will have every very, very regularly some of these companies or regulators are our experts, some of which are in house and are on advisory boards for British water and advising on the water companies in the UK around emerging pollutants and emerging pharmaceuticals in some of these wastewaters. So we do that through lunch and learns we. And obviously there's there's project experience as well as part of the overall graduate program.

Dusty Rhodes  25:52

Can I wrap up by asking you about that, because you're very proactive in encouraging people to move up the ladder in the career and that Lunch and Learn is just one of the things that you do on the graduate program that you have, generally within the company and the various projects that you have around the world when you're looking for people. And when you're looking for people who want to move up the ladder? What impresses you, and then you go, he's gone up the ladder?

Karl Zimmerer  26:16

Yeah, well, there's absolutely no stupid questions, does the answer to we make it very, very clear to our graduates as we expand one of the ethos, and I probably learned from people who I worked with in the 90s and noughties, and it often comes back to don't come to me with questions, come to me with solutions, and check if those solutions don't come to your problems, come to me with solutions. And just asked me Do I think the solutions are right that those two things. Fundamentally, it gets that young engineer, whether graduate or advanced in years, it gets them fundamentally problem solving. So they have to come up with a solution, they have to come with an idea. The idea might be lunacy, and might be stupid. But that's the learning, it's better to come with an idea upfront, so that it embeds that problem solving nature, within within their, their career development, and they're taught. And second of all, it allows me an awful lot more time to be just advising them on what their solution is rather than having to solve the problem for them. But it's it's a very, very important trait. And those those young career minded people who who want to progress you will find do that far more often. And, you know, some of our absolute best developing people within the industry or, or within our business are people that might have the traditional disciplines or the top of the class results, it is that practical approach, whether it can be very design oriented, orientated, academic and or otherwise. But that practical minded problem solving, ability to be able to bring real and viable solutions to the challenges that we encounter every single day, across every day. And some of the challenges we're dealing with now, within our organization are you know, once in a lifetime engineering problems and in replacing a massive pump station, Victorian era Pump Station in London without damaging that building, which is a listed building. It's it's colossal challenges that we encountered every day, but it's that attitude of this is, this is what's in front of me, I need to go and deliver it because problems this is how I think is going to solve these problems. And two, three years into it, that engineer that this whatever qualification they have, they are phenomenally advanced and positive for our organization bad

Dusty Rhodes  28:48

So don't be shy, speak up and offer solutions that exactly what gets the attention and gets you up the ladder. And I have to say Carl, a lot of the projects that you are working on with Glenua sound absolutely fascinating. If you want to find out more about them, or about Karl or any of the topics that we spoke about today, you'll find notes and link details in the description area of this podcast, but for now, Karl Zimmerer, Group MD of Glenua, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. If you enjoyed our podcast today, do share with a friend in the business just tell them to search for Engineers Ireland in their podcast player. The podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland. For advanced episodes, more information on engineering across Ireland or career development opportunities there are libraries of information on the website at engineersireland.ie. Until next time from myself, Dusty Rhodes. Thank you so much for listening.

Water for the Future: Karl Zimmerer, Glanua

Engineers are on the frontline of influencing our future and play a key role in the race against climate change.

As we embrace the digital transition, one Irish company is leading the way in decarbonisation. Today we hear how the firm has achieved rapid success in just three years of business, how they develop passionate and innovative teams and the incredible creative opportunities available to Irish engineers across Europe.

Our expert guest believes in the power of combining engineering and business and is passionate about Ireland’s ability to be world leaders in this space. He is Founder and Managing Director of Skanstec, Declan Wynne.

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

  • Filling the market gap for decarbonisation innovation
  • Transitioning from fossil fuels to clean energy in Ireland’s grid
  • The challenges causing a race against time for engineers
  • How Ireland can be a world leader in energy and digital
  • CPD and opportunities for Irish engineers across Europe
  • The role of data centres in decarbonisation

 

GUEST DETAILS

As Founder and Managing Director, Declan Wynne leads the Skanstec Executive Management Team and sits on the company’s board. Declan has a strong Engineering background with dynamic business acumen and a human approach. Declan has over 20 years’ experience in the Engineering sector and has a passion for Engineering and sustainability.

The transition to a climate neutral society, coupled with the convergence of Digital Energy and Connectivity, inspired Declan’s vision for Skanstec to be a leading specialist Engineering company in the Energy and Telecommunication Sector with a focus on Decarbonisation and the Digital Transition.

Declan holds a Degree in Engineering and a Master’s in Business Administration (MBA), including Level 9 Post Grads in Project Management and Coaching.

www.skanstec.com

 

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/  

 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

 

QUOTES

I've always had a passion for engineering and particularly a passion for business, and I think both work very much hand in hand, particularly in an Irish context. I think Irish engineers are quite good at being innovative and have a way about doing business that seems to be quite successful in many parts of the globe. - Declan Wynne

 

Engineering becomes more and more important in terms of what we're trying to achieve at a national level and at a global level in terms of decarbonisation, and the digital transition that we're experiencing. - Declan Wynne

 

The world is changing, and we've got to act, we've got to adapt. - Declan Wynne

 

Irish engineering businesses are dominating across Europe. It's a huge opportunity for engineers. - Declan Wynne

 

The data centres are absolutely fundamental to decarbonisation. We can't decarbonize without data centers. Ireland's challenge at present is power. It's not data centers in my own view, and that's something that we're proud to be involved in. - Declan Wynne

 

KEYWORDS

#engineering #decarbonisation #opportunity #datacentres #business #sustainability

 

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, we're about to find out how decarbonisation and the digital transition go hand in hand.

 

Declan Wynne  00:06

The data centres are absolutely fundamental to decarbonisation. We can't decarbonize without data centers. Ireland's challenge at present is power. It's not data centers in my own view, and that's something that we're proud to be involved in.

 

Dusty Rhodes  00:24

Hi there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to AMPLIFIED, the Engineers Journal podcast. Engineers are on the frontline of influencing our future. And one Irish company is making waves in two key areas of modern engineering, decarbonisation and the digital transition. We're about to meet an engineer who is leading the way in creating Ireland's future scaling it for international success and ensuring decarbonisation is at the forefront of it all. We find out how his firm has achieved rapid success in just three years of business, how they developed passionate and innovative teams, and the incredible creative opportunities that are available right now for Irish engineers. It's a pleasure to welcome the managing director of Skanstec Declan Wynne, how are you? I'm good, Dusty. Thanks for having me on. Listen, tell me, how did you get into the engineering game?

 

Declan Wynne  01:13

I've always had a passion for engineering and particularly a passion for business. And I think both work very much hand in hand, particularly in an Irish context. I think Irish engineers are quite quite good at being innovative, particularly connections and have a way about doing business that seems to be quite successful in many parts of the globe.

 

Dusty Rhodes  01:38

And your company is quite young, in that you've set up in the middle of the pandemic, not the cleverest ideas, some would say was what was kind of your thinking behind it the ethos of the company, and why did you set up during the pandemic? Yeah,

 

Declan Wynne  01:53

look, the company was founded in 2021. It wasn't a lightbulb moment or anything like that it was to serve a gap in the market. Engineering is becoming really, really important. It's always played a huge role in terms of Irish society and globally, for that matter, however, in recent years has become more and more important in terms of what we're trying to achieve at a national level and at a global level in terms of decarbonisation, and the digital transition that we're experiencing, so the business was formed without concept in mind. And, yeah, it's been an exciting journey over the past three years.

 

Dusty Rhodes  02:29

What would you say was the biggest challenge of setting up a brand new enterprise during the pandemic?

 

Declan Wynne  02:34

There are many, many challenges associated to it. But I think that's the the genesis of engineers were problem solvers. And I think the art of shoot particularly in terms of the, the Irish engineer, and people is very much around, you know, overcoming problems, solving problems, having a can do a can do attitude. And we didn't really dwell too much on the pandemic. In that sense, it was more about the future. It's an ambitious group of people, we've got a passion for what we do and what a what a clear focus on decarbonisation and tried to help combat climate change in the first instance. And also trying to capitalize and utilize what's happening from a digital transition point of view, is really the foundations of our, our business. So, you know, shortage in terms of power, is a real challenge, and probably in the last number of years has become, you know, very much a topical subject in terms of its its cost, etc. And, look, the time is right for us. And 2021 was it was it was a good time for us to embark on this journey.

 

Dusty Rhodes  03:38

You said that you found a gap in the market. And my understanding is that you kind of create connections between new power sources that we have and the existing power grid, which has been around for ages. How would you describe that gap in the market?

 

Declan Wynne  03:55

Yeah, essentially, we're a single source solution to our end clients. So we design an engineer key infrastructure, in terms of power and grids, we look at it with two aspects, we look at demand customers, so customers that have a power demand that need to bring power from the grid to the point of use, we design engineer that solution to take that power to their to their facility, and in the opposite direction where you've got a power generator. So you've got the likes of solar farms, wind farms, people that are out there, you know, development and generating power, we take power from the point of generation onto the grid. And our business around the energy is very much geared towards both of those avenues, along with the actual grid itself. So the utility side of off the grid network.

 

Dusty Rhodes  04:48

There are a lot of new energy sources that are becoming available. Wind power is kind of one that we would expect solar power is actually quite effective in our lives, which I was very surprised and there are others as hydro electricity Then stuff like that which are being used more and more from your point of view, because you're connecting these new power sources to the grid, what what are these new power sources and what's particularly good about them for you?

 

Declan Wynne  05:12

I think the first key point to what's good about them is that we're facing a major challenge in terms of climate change, we're trying to, you know, combat climate change and creating, you know, a sustainable society for future generations. That's everyone's challenge. As engineers working within that space, obviously, what we want to try and do is take as much fossil fuels off the system and replace it with clean forms of energy. And in order to do that, you've got to look at all options. Obviously, you know, wind is a big player in terms of energy in the Irish context, we have close to five gigawatt of power on the Irish network. But the wind doesn't always blow, as you know, and solar, obviously is becoming a key point hasn't got the same scale, as of yet, of course, but when we look at what we have, in terms of, you know, climate change, we look at what's coming in from Southern Europe in terms of our climate in that region. And in the opposite, we look at the likes of the Northern Europe where wind blows, through the winter months, Southern Europe gets quite quite a good temperature, and daylight throughout summer months, it's getting the mix of energy sources, right. And that's where I would see the the major opportunity for for Ireland as an as a nation in terms of meeting that transition. That's, that's necessary. So we've got to take these fossil fuels, as I mentioned, off the grid, and look at renewable sources. And in order to do that, we've got to look at all aspects of renewables. And we've got to look at how we actually engineer that. So you will hear a lot about, you know, policy planning, financial aspects in terms of how do we how do we decarbonize? How do we get to an end zero position, and they're all very, very valid points and key that they're, they're addressed. But engineering is also a big pillar in that we've got to engineer the solution, we've got to, we've got to do it in a timely manner. And it's driven by people and we are largely a business people, we innovate through our services, we're, you know, progressive in terms of what we do with our with our clients. And there's flexibility and in terms of our our service, and that's something we pride ourselves upon on I think if you look at the challenges that will face a not alone, Ireland, but what to put Europe and globally in the coming year. It's it's it's, it's a race in terms of time that we got to do this quickly, we got to do it to a standard that sustainable for the long term. A

 

Dusty Rhodes  07:47

race against time is quite a big statement. What do you what do you think the challenge is for us with that race?

 

Declan Wynne  07:54

Look, I think we can look to, you know, aspects outside of engineering at this point in time, when we look at, you know, the climate change, we look at global warming, we look at the temperature difference over a relatively short period of time, the world is changing, and we've got to we've got to act, we've got to adapt to that. So directly and indirectly, we're delighted to be involved in combating that. So I'm obviously from a from a business point of view, working in areas such as renewables, and engineering to solutions and designing and building out these renewable projects to actually bring them to life. So it's making it happen, I would describe it as, where we actually take the point of generation onto the grid, by by designing and building a grid network, and make making it real and, and, and ultimately replacing those fossil fuels. That's the first step. And then obviously, you know, indirectly I think sustainability is a word that, you know, is popping up everywhere, in terms of, you know, our debt, our day to day lives, but also in terms of our business, and we've got to pay attention to that. And from a sustainability point of view, there's a lot that we can all do in terms of sustainability. And it starts with engineering, we got to engineer the future, we've got to think about our design process, we've got to, you know, be mindful of it from from the, from the very beginning, in terms of the you know, the selection of materials, what we we spec in terms of the nature of a project and that's the key component to to obviously combat in this and and it is a race and I think there's no better nation or group of people in terms of Irish engineers to to take on that challenge and Irish engineering, businesses are dominating across Europe. It's a huge opportunity for for engineers. I've been involved in this space for quite a long time. And I don't think there's ever been as much opportunity it's it's exciting. There's there's challenges, but I think engineers are problem solvers. Irish engineers have a great can do attitude, as I mentioned, and I think that puts us in a great position to dominate the future.

 

Dusty Rhodes  09:59

On the subject fields Sustainability, what do you think is stopping us as an island nation from being completely self sustaining with natural power sources?

 

Declan Wynne  10:08

I think the things that are stopping us from achieving that, first is is time it takes time to make that change, we got to be realistic in terms of the time it takes. But we're, we're on course, to do that. I think policy is a planning are two key pillars in this and we've got to make sure that our policies right and our plan is right to enable it, there's a lot of work to happen in terms of facilitating us we've a huge resource in Ireland in terms of renewable potential, probably the greatest in the world in terms of where we're situated situated. With potentially you don't seven times the area, the land area in terms of offshore wind potential, there's seven gigawatts of power plant in terms of offshore wind, five of it that's planned by 2030, I think that will be an exceptional challenge for us. And I think what stuck on that is the the points I mentioned in terms of planning, particularly policy and infrastructure, that's theory that we specialize in in terms of the the electrical infrastructure to enable those particular projects. But there are other types of infrastructure that are required in terms of, you know, ports, access to getting such large scale equipment to, to its place, and I think we got it, we got to look to those things. And they're the barriers, people, of course, can't be underestimated, there's a huge need for engineering resource. And we've got to look at how we can address that and attract people into the market. And I think there's no better time than now to get involved in engineering. And I think there's so many different avenues to get involved in engineering, which, which is more important. So you've, you know, you've your conventional, you know, academic route where people will study a degree in university from, you know, be civil, mechanical, electrical, etc. But there's, there's new avenues emerging. And, and that's really exciting for our industry in the form of more skilled people getting involved from from a trade side from an apprenticeship perspective. And we need to be, we need to be embracing that. And we need to be promoting the opportunities and engineering, which I think is a times underestimated, and in terms of our business and our growth. You know, we have great people involved, but we have people involved from all types of engineering. And there's people that are from an engineering background that really enjoy things within the business that may not be described as your conventional engineering on a day to day basis, there's problems to be solved. And there's logistics, there's challenges, there's coming up with solutions, and coming up with those solutions within a timely manner is part of the excitement. So back to the point in relation to what's preventing us it's it's those key people, so it's it's our human resources, and it's getting our ducks in line from it from an enablement perspective.

 

Dusty Rhodes  13:02

Interested in you as a people is kind of one of the one of the key resources that we need in engineering in order to solve these problems, because it's something that not a lot of people say, but it's so true. Can I ask you about fossil fuels, and we've power plants, and they've been around for decades, and our grid has been around for decades as well. We're getting rid of the fossil fuel power plants, because they're kind of old technology, we just can't keep them. What about the grid? Does that need upgrading?

 

Declan Wynne  13:30

Absolutely. Look, you could say our whole industry that we work in is close to 100 years old at this point in time, obviously, our necrose shows the landmark piece of infrastructure in Ireland in terms of power, and ignited a whole sector. And I think it's a key piece of history. And it's been a real success story in terms of the rollout of the the 110 KV network from that back in 1927. Were close to 100 years, and there's huge advancements, since then we've close to, you know, 60 utility scale power plants in Ireland, we're got capacity of 7.5 gigawatts of power. It's a huge leap forward. But we have so much more to do. There's a lot of money going into the grid on the network. But as I mentioned in the outset, it's that transition our energy system is is changing. So the the network was designed on the basis of what we had at a given time. And it's very, very clear now that we need to move towards a completely different source of energy and that sources is renewables. And it's renewables from both, you know, onshore wind, offshore wind, solar and many others that will will come down the line and to enable that we've got to we've got to flex our system and we've got to adopt us to meet those needs and the needs for you know, renewables connecting the large scale office or wind farms from the west coast of Ireland or the south or the East Coast is is much different and requires a different grid network. And we have to build in the smarts to our network as well. And that's where connectivity is a key point to this. So we looked at heat and transport and we look at, you know, not alone, the utility companies or the developers, that's generating like, as society, you know, people in their own private domestic homes and you know, their commercial facilities are putting solar panels on the roof. They're looking at microgeneration they're looking at smart grids. This is all part of the the network and we've we've got to gear up and we've got to be prepared for that. And we're on the right road, I think. I think we've got the key stakeholders in our industry onboard that is doing some some great work, but it's a race to time we've got to accelerate and we got to do a quick

 

Dusty Rhodes  15:55

a huge driver for your company has gotten stuck is decarbonisation, that how important is engineering in the context of decarbonisation?

 

Declan Wynne  16:04

It's hugely important because we need to, if we look at sustainability, and we look at, you know, ESG, we talk about how do we save the planet like, this is, this is a global, a global challenge. It's about future generations. And when we look at how we're going to actually do it, we need to engineer those solutions. And not alone, do we need to engineer them for, you know, today and tomorrow, but we need to engineer them for the future in terms of sustainability. And that's often by making the right choices. It might not be the cheapest, it might not be the fastest. It's about actually what sustainable what's, what's the right foundation blocks to put in place for the for the future. So when we look at, you know, connectivity, we look at Super grades we look at trying to build a network that will serve us into the future. decarbonisation is a is key to that. And that can only be achieved through through real good solid engineering. And and I think Ireland is hugely positioned to be a leader not it's been a leader in many areas of engineering, it's got reputation globally, for its engineering ability. And particularly in in our particular sector at present. As I mentioned, Irish engineering companies are dominating across Europe in terms of specialist engineering services. And, you know, construction, as a sector is is a huge piece of the economy. It's one of our fastest and largest growing sectors. And it's a it's a big player to the wider economy. And we got to make the right choices in terms of what we what we design and introducing to the system in Florida for the future. You

 

Dusty Rhodes  17:44

say that Ireland could be a leader or is a leader in the world of energy and digital. Have you any, like examples of projects that show this particularly with the decarbonisation?

 

Declan Wynne  17:55

Yeah, there's numerous scenarios where we can look to that if we look at some of the largest infrastructure projects in this sector, across Europe, there's multiple Irish businesses involved. And each of those schemes is very few projects across Europe where Irish engineering companies don't pop up and appear and they're appearing there because they're their leaders. And we got we got to take note of that. And I would encourage, you know, people that are thinking about getting into engineering to to stand back and look at the opportunities in engineering, both in terms to profession, but also in terms of the career experience, opportunity to travel engineering is a is a global passport, I would describe it as it's, it's an opportunity to go to many places. And when we talk about large scale renewable projects, when we speak about data center connections, data center market is huge across Europe, and Irish engineering companies are dominant in that space. So we're well recognized. And I think we're well welcomed is probably a key point as well, right from the AF, there's a there's a can do attitude. It's a case of we can get this done. And I think that's what engineer needs at this point in time it needs it needs people that can grab hold of problems can innovate, the pace is fast, we see the likes of you know, AI coming down the tracks, power demands are increase. And we all want to be super connected, not just at our, you know, our office location or home or home office location. As soon as we step out into the car, we had down the street, we want to be connected at all times. And that's infrastructure and and that's that's engineering and I think Irish engineering staff have flown the flag really, really well, today's and I think we've positioned ourselves to be a major player for the future. Let

 

Dusty Rhodes  19:46

me ask you about engineers because we're talking about travel and working abroad. Firstly, kind of like a lot of people go to Australia, you're talking about a lot of people working in Europe, in your own experience. Where do you You see, or hear engineers going around the world? Where do they go?

 

Declan Wynne  20:05

Yeah, look, I think we're at a difficult time particularly for for young people and graduates on the back of, you know, pandemic and maybe we're opportunities weren't as plentiful to, to travel for various reasons. On people now we're looking to explore, what I would say is that there are other opportunities to explore it in Europe and closer to home. So we see a lot of people go into Australia, we see a lot of people going to Canada, and places such as that, but often we don't stop and think what's on our doorstep. There's some of the leading engineering companies in Ireland that are dominated, as I said, across Europe. And that's a huge engineering opportunity. So if you want to travel and see the the Nordics, you want to see Southern Europe, you want to see mainland Europe while progressing your career and being at the forefront of prestigious engineering projects. That opportunity exists. And because of technological advancements, you know, engineering, first principles remain, but the day to day activity is fast changing. And I think that's quite exciting. So you might get someone who may want to progress a career in in it or in a different, particular swimlane. But engineering is actually a solution, because there are so many options in engineering at the moment. And engineering companies have to embrace that and have to promote that.

 

Dusty Rhodes  21:27

Speaking of opportunities for engineers, can I ask you about scan Tech, I mean, it's an engineers, Ireland CPD accredited employer, it sounds like you really invest in your people. How important is that continuous development for you?

 

Declan Wynne  21:42

It's hugely important. Dustin, I think, you know, any, any company that underestimates that will face challenges into the future, because as much as we have all the technological advancements, we still have to deliver through human connection, we have to develop people. And the engineers, Ireland is CPD framework is a super platform to develop people. It's universal, it's not restricted to to Ireland or, you know, you can apply it to anywhere you operate. And it gives an opportunity for people to see a pathway in terms their career, and it gives the the employer the opportunity to identify the gaps to work on the developmental areas that are needed in order to advance people in both their careers, but also in terms of their skill set. And to be able to match that with the needs. That's that's facing facing companies. And I think for for the engineers themselves in terms of CPD, I think entering a business where you, you have that mindset in place, is hugely, hugely important, because it's a clear pathway to progression, there's something visible, and there's something that can work towards. And I think that's important. We all need development in what we do. And at the pace, the industry has gone out at present, it's never been as important. And

 

Dusty Rhodes  23:08

there's a huge amount of information but I always say there's libraries of information that literally is on the on the engineers Ireland website, take a look at that. But Declan talking to talk and walk the walk are two different things. So you speak very eloquently about continuous development. Can I ask you how you have embraced continuous learning in your own career?

 

Declan Wynne  23:27

Yeah, look, it's it's something that we tried to put a lot of focus on in the business and in order to, to lead that you've got to put a focus on your own development. And I think every day is a is a learning day, you don't often need a very formal structured course to develop. So there's coaching and mentoring that takes place in terms of the workplace. So I think the leadership side is is usually usually important. I've always had a passion for for engineering, but equally for business. And I think to survive in business you've got to be prepared for, for change. And to be ready for change, you've got to develop and you've got to continually develop and that's something that I've always put an emphasis on. So I've got I've got an engineering background, I have an MBA from DCU and a few poor scribes that I focus on continue to try and get involved in in programs to progress and advance in terms of my own personal development and performance but equally to be able to, to share that experience and and champion it from from the company level. Yeah,

 

Dusty Rhodes  24:31

also last year, you were an EY Arland Entrepreneur of the Year finalist. Is that kind of a good learning experience? Or is it kind of more ego kind of thing?

 

Declan Wynne  24:44

Definitely not the latter. It's It's hugely it's hugely progressive in terms of learning. My experience on the white program has been super first and foremost a I could not be involved in something like that. If it wasn't for our team that's gonna stick. It's our people in The business that presents the opportunity in terms of where the business is to get that recognition, I am at the helm of it. But we wouldn't be there if we didn't have a strong team behind us. In terms that earn in throughout, its massive we learned so much from from one another. I think network and connection are two key things in terms of success within Irish engineers, we've seemed to have an a natural pedigree for, for making connection. And we do that seamlessly in Ireland and even abroad. And I think, you know, companies overseas recognize that when when, when the see the Irish go Monday, they kind of feel that these guys will get it done that, you know, how and when and where it are other questions. But there's there's a belief factor. And I think from the away experience in terms of meeting like minded people, particularly from, you know, an entrepreneurship perspective, it's usually positive on and on a major learning in terms of my own career. Now,

 

Dusty Rhodes  25:58

listen, I haven't asked you too much about your own company scan stick, and you've been saying that you work kind of a lot around Europe, are you able to give us kind of an idea of the kind of projects that you're involved in? Yeah,

 

Declan Wynne  26:10

look, we're, as you mentioned, we're a relatively young company. At present, we employ close to 150 people, we have three regional European office locations, Ireland and Lisbon, in Portugal for our Iberian inserta marketplace. And we've regional office up in Denmark for the Nordics. We're currently delivering life projects across seven different European locations. And that's for a mix of clients, mainly multinationals, and utility type clients focusing on largely renewables and and data centers. Telecommunications is also a key component to to our business. And we're delighted to be working for some global brands in terms of telecommunications and delivering those across Europe also, which is really, really important.

 

Dusty Rhodes  27:02

And CZ mentioned data centers. Let me finish by asking about data centers, because what has been so you talk to you, but sometimes it can be a bit of a dirty word. And data centers here in Ireland are hogging nearly 20% of the entire electricity supply. And that's, that's going to grow. Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing? How do you see it?

 

Declan Wynne  27:20

Data centers are absolutely fundamental to decarbonisation. And I think it's a, it's an education piece. We can't decarbonize without data centers. What is Ireland's challenge at present is is power. It's not data centers in, in my own view, clearly, there are huge, you know, energy draws from data centers, that's a given. However, in terms of what data centers do, it's really, really important that we have data centers, and we need more and more data centers, Europe is absolutely growing rapidly in terms of the data center market. And that's essential for decarbonisation, achieving a net zero position. I think in terms of the Irish context, it's probably getting greater focus, because there's a pressure on power. And particularly over the last number of years, there's been a huge emphasis on the cost of power, and not set everyone under their back pocket is, as we all know, and ultimately, that's the race for time. But I spoke about earlier in terms that we've got to replace fossil fuels, we've got to bring on a cleaner form of energy onto our system, a cleaner source of energy, and we've got to adjust and transition our energy system to enable that to happen. And that's something that we're proud to be involved in. And I think it's something that has to be the focus. And if we look at, you know, solving the problem, I think it's there, we need to look at not my data centers. And

 

Dusty Rhodes  28:49

it's fair to say then that the number one thing that we need to get those problems sorted as engineers.

 

Declan Wynne  28:55

Absolutely. And you know, we look, we look at engineering, we look at, you know, remote work, and we look at connectivity, data centers are central to all of those areas, in terms of people, it's people that design and build them. And if we look at, you know, the need for engineers, now more than ever, engineers aren't needed. If we look at people that might go into, you know, policy change to to make an impact in terms of the future. That's something that's important to them. If you're thinking about engineering, you can also look at engineering in the context how it can play a part in terms of changing our future our future for for generations to come. And that's where I'd say the major opportunity lies presently in both home and abroad.

 

Dusty Rhodes  29:42

Well, listen, if anything we've been chatting about on the podcast today is kind of sparking your imagination, or you're kind of looking for more opportunities and you want to find out more about Declan Wynne and Skanstec or some of the topics that we spoke about in general, you'll find notes and link details in the description area of this podcast, but for now, Declan Wynne managing director of Skanstec, Thank you very much for joining us.

 

30:02

Thanks dusty. Thanks for having us on

 

Dusty Rhodes  30:09

If you enjoyed our podcast today, do share it with a friend in the business. Just tell them to search for Engineers Ireland in their podcast player. The podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland for advanced episodes, more information on engineering across the country or career development opportunities, which we mentioned, there are libraries of information on our website at engineersireland.ie. Until next time from myself, Dusty Rhodes, thank you for listening.

Decarbonisation Challenge | Declan Wynne, MD of Skanstec

Water Infrastructure is a hugely important sector here in Ireland, and it has many challenges on the horizon, including everything from climate change to infrastructure demand.

Today, we're finding out more about the future of that water infrastructure and where engineers will play a crucial role in ensuring its success.

Our expert today is at the centre of the industry and has experience working on massive projects in Ireland, the UK and Asia. He is CEO of Uisce Éireann and a fellow of Engineers Ireland, Niall Gleeson.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Things we spoke about:

1:22 Working on infrastructure projects abroad

04:29 Moving from on the ground engineering to management

06:41 Water supply challenges in Ireland

09:49 Maintaining drinking water safety

11:30 Sourcing more water supplies for rural and urban areas

14:02 How wastewater is managed

15:18 Future-proofing in Uisce Éireann

18:05 Climate change considerations in water management

20:52 Engineering roles in the water sector

23:52 Driving innovation while managing the day to day

28:57 Uisce Éireann’s role in future infrastructure

30:56 What lessons helped Niall move up the ladder

Guest details

Niall Gleeson is Chief Executive Officer of Uisce Éireann, the national utility responsible for providing public water and wastewater services throughout Ireland. Niall leads the organisation in the delivery of safe, clean and environmentally compliant water services to households and businesses across Ireland. He has been instrumental in driving Uisce Éireann’s safety, sustainability and employee engagement strategies and in 2021 led the organisation in securing the provision of an historic €1.1 billion in capital investment funding, which is vital to developing Ireland’s critical water services infrastructure, protecting public health and supporting social and economic development.

Prior to joining Uisce Éireann, Niall was Managing Director for Veolia Ireland and Alstom Ireland and held a number of senior leadership roles with world-leading infrastructure companies including General Electric and Shanahan Engineering. He has significant experience in the finance, construction, commissioning and maintenance of transport and utility assets, and has led major infrastructure projects across Ireland, the UK and Asia. Raised in Dublin, he holds a degree in engineering from the Dublin Institute of Technology.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/niallgleeson/
https://www.water.ie/about/careers/

More information 

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/ 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

Quotes

The problem-solving is one of the big things, engineers are  in demand not just for engineering trades, but banking or all that kind of stuff. It’s the ability to look at a problem and work out a logical process to get a resolution, starting at the start and working your way methodically through problems is a real key, and it’s a trait that most engineers have. - Niall Gleeson

A lot of us are very solution focused, especially engineers, so we're trying to solve people's problems for them. Quite often, you just have to listen. They talk themselves through the problem and they almost solve it for you while they're sitting in front of you. So it's not always reacting. I think that's probably what I would teach my younger self, listen more. - Niall Gleeson

We have an awful lot of stuff that goes into toilets that shouldn't go into toilets like wet wipes.. They say they're biodegradable, but they're not. We pull about 60 tons of what we call rags out of the inlets of Ringsend every month. - Niall Gleeson

Over the next 25 years our plan is to improve drinking water, get a very reliable source, provide more where there's growth and make sure that the likes of Dublin can continue to grow, and other urban areas. All of the projections are that the population is going to keep growing.  - Niall Gleeson

We have to do our day to day job and we have to deliver water every day, so innovation can be tricky. But our sustainability program is driving a lot of innovation, we're looking at solar panels on the roofs of buildings and things like biodiversity. - Niall Gleeson

We're crying out for engineers at the moment. We have a huge recruitment programme going on. As part of our transformation to, the Uisce Eireann transformation program. One of the challenges we have is with our own teams and with the local authorities, there's a lot of gray hair. I have it myself, but there's a lot of people who are approaching retirement. So we need a new batch of people coming through. - Niall Gleeson

Keywords

#water #engineers #wastewater #drinkingwater #rivers #climatechange

Transcription

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, we're about to learn about supplying something as basic as water to a rapidly growing population.

Niall Gleeson  00:07

We're crying out for engineers at the moment. So we have a huge recruitment program going on. There's a lot of people who are approaching retirement. So we need a new batch of people coming through to learn from the existing people, but also take over, you know, the operations and the construction of those sites. So yeah, we need graduates we need young engineers who have what a few years experience and an even more senior engineer so across the board we're looking for, for engineers, there's a lot of hiring going on in our industry.

Dusty Rhodes  00:32

Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to AMPLIFIED, the Engineers Journal podcast. Water Infrastructure is a hugely important sector here in Ireland, and it has many challenges on the horizon, including everything from climate change to infrastructure demand. Today, we're finding out more about the future of that water infrastructure and where engineers will play a crucial role in ensuring its success. To tell us more is a man at the center of the industry. His engineering degree from DIT brought him huge experience on massive projects in Ireland, the UK and Asia. He's also held many senior leadership roles with world leading infrastructure companies. And we're proud to say that he is a fellow of Engineers Ireland. I'm delighted to welcome the CEO of Uisce Eireann, Niall Gleeson, hello Niall.

01:18

Hey, Dusty, Thanks for Thanks for having me on.

Dusty Rhodes  01:22

Listen, I want to chat about the problems that we're facing in Ireland with water and where Uisce Eireann sits in that mix. And of course, the role that engineers have in solving the problems we face. But first, tell us a little bit about your your own career, you've worked on some fairly, very substantial infrastructure projects abroad, what would you say are the highlights?

Niall Gleeson  01:41

Yeah, I started my the real start of my career was when I joined General Electric who, every year back in the sort of 80s and 90s, they hired about 15 to 20 Irish engineers, when we were cheap and plentiful, you know. And we traveled all over the world installing power plants, and equipment for General Electric, so a fantastic job in coming out of 80s. Ireland, it was, you know, huge opportunity and got to see Alaska, I got to see Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, China, so and Poland, so worked in all those countries. And it was a fascinating job. So I don't know, is there one particular one, I suppose one that I brings to mind is actually back in the UK, we had a major projects and the equipment failed. I mean, these were large 100 ton rotors spinning at 3000 rpm, and they started to lose bolts. And that whole program of you know, it was an innovation that's led the innovation innovation on the that equipment meant that they were under severe pressure and severe stress and the design didn't work. But the whole program around, you know, retrofitting those and fixing it was fascinating. We were at one stage flying rotors across the Atlantic on Antonov aircraft to get them repaired quick enough. So yeah, a good sense of scale, I suppose. As well, back in those days, it was no email, no mobile phones. So you became pretty resilient and became pretty good at adapting and dealing with ambiguity and you know, having to make decisions yourself in the middle of China when you couldn't get an answer. And you couldn't just download the solution off the internet or get pick something off email. So it made a lot more resilient and a lot more thinking for yourself, you know, give me

Dusty Rhodes  03:19

an example of that being in the middle of nowhere and needing something massive and having to have it here tomorrow.

Niall Gleeson  03:24

I do remember in I was on the call off the coast of Venezuela on a project and it was one of the early new technology. But we were still dialing up at 1200 baud rate. I don't know if I remember doing that. And you heard the little Binkley noises No like a stuff. So I downloaded a patch for the software, which took about eight hours to download on a phone line. And the phone bill was around $800 I think you know what I mean? So but we it's eight as a couple of weeks waiting for a CD to arrive from from the States with it. So one of the first patches downloaded, I would I would like to claim, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  03:58

I'm not gonna try to do you think they're your engineer training, uh, you know, kind of helped you with all of this.

Niall Gleeson  04:03

I think certainly the, you know, the problem solving is, you know, you really, that's one of the big things that engineers I mean, they're in demand, not just for engineering trades, but banking or lack of staff has the ability to look at a problem and work out a logical process to get a resolution. I think that's really important starting at the start and, and working your way methodically to problems is a real key for a trait that most engineers have, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  04:29

let me ask you about going from, you know, working as an engineer and then going into management because I have huge experience of that what at what point did that a lot of the projects you've spoken about was that as management or were you working as an engineer?

Niall Gleeson  04:41

Yeah, I suppose that large project I talked about with the with the rotor sailing, I was a commissioning engineer at that one. So not many people working for me and it was the tail end of the job and they wanted someone to take over the lead just to finish off the sort of final few months of the job. Some of the machines had been working fine up to that point. So I took over the lead expecting this, would you just be a nice easy job and run down the project and then disappear. And then the crisis hit. And I was finding myself in the hot seat with, you know, companies VPS ringing me up saying what's going on? And what's happening? And what are you guys doing over there and so stressful. The other thing I found is my peers are always entirely cooperative, you know, because I think it's one of the things when you step into management, and you've been working alongside people for a while, there's sometimes a little bit of pushback, you know, people don't really naturally and that was something that I hadn't dealt with before. But you know, working with try and get your peers to, to work with you and to say, Okay, I've moved into the more senior position. And now I'm at now I'm telling you what to do. You don't like it, but we got to keep with this is what we got to do. And that was something that it was a steep learning curve in that sense.

Dusty Rhodes  05:50

If you were to go back in time and talk to yourself at that younger age, what what advice would you give yourself now.

Niall Gleeson  05:57

And I think it's, you know, along the lines of, a lot of it is about listening to people. And a lot of you know, listening to the problem, quite often people come in to you, they have a problem. And really, they just want to talk through it, a lot of us are very solution focused, especially engineers, so we're trying to solve people's problems for them. Quite often, you just have to listen. And they talk themselves selves through the problem. And they they almost solve it for you while they're sitting in front of you, you know, so it's, it's not always reacting. I think that's probably what I what I would teach, teach my younger self and listen more, and, you know, let people talk things through.

Dusty Rhodes  06:30

It's like men are from Mars, and women are from Venus, except it's engineers are from Mars. Yeah. Whereas, like, if you have a problem, I'll tell you how to fix it.

Niall Gleeson  06:38

Exactly. straightaway.

Dusty Rhodes  06:41

So you fear listen more, and that helps you progress up the line. Okay, cool. Listen, let's talk about water in Ireland, because one of the things we hear about with water in Ireland is that we need to protect our water supply. Is it in danger?

Niall Gleeson  06:57

You look at it even took me another last few days, we've seen flooding and cork and that so there's an abundance of water in the country, but But it comes at different times, we the way we use us and the way we source it, and the way we protect those sources, that's not in a great place. I mean, we do we use a lot of surface water, a lot of river water, lake water in Ireland, for our for our drinking water supplies, and between how we treat, you know, runoff, how pesticides, land spreading, and also our own treatment plants for on the west side, we are contributing to those resources not been in great condition. If you look at the EPA River Basin report, you know, water quality has been deteriorating. So I mean, inish air, we're working very hard to improve those wastewater treatment plants. We also want to work with landowners and farmers in that to try and look at what's happening upstream, how do we treat those? How do we prevent those pesticides and nutrients, too much nutrient going into the into the sources, and it's a big collaboration space, it's not something, as I say to people, it's not something that is Garin can fix with concrete and pumps, you know, it's, we can do a certain amount, but we need the entire communities to buy into protecting those water sources. And I think water because we have so much of it, it's not respected in our in the way, if you go to drier countries, you know, water is really treated differently.

Dusty Rhodes  08:18

So it's a case of we have the quantity, but it's the quality that you're worried about, and lots of other things that are affecting water that would you say that we use water from the land, as you say, from from rivers, so we don't necessarily get a lot of our water from wells, is that what you mean?

Niall Gleeson  08:34

It would be quite mixed. I mean, we've got 700 water treatment plants around the country, everything from ballymore uses, which supplies most of Dublin to, you know, a small well, that will supply 500 people, you know, out in rural areas. So they're quite different to so some are wells, but the vast majority of our our water is from surface water. So we do need to treat or you know, to work closely on treating all that kind of stuff. The other thing is with climate change, we are seeing you know, you're seeing deluge us, but you're also seeing much drier weather as well. So it's how do we protect those sources? How do we kind of store storing water is difficult, we have reservoirs in Dublin that, you know, people say, you know, why don't you make those bigger, but we have, you know, the vast reservoirs in stillorgan, that they will give us about 24 hour storage for the for the city, you know, so building, you know, weeks of storage is very expensive and not really practical. That's why we're looking at if you take var tree or you take Bula fuca those were enormous valleys that were flooded back in, back in, you know, when you could get when you could do that kind of stuff. But you know, it's not really practical nowadays to look at flooding valleys, it's just ecologically not the sensible thing to do. You know. So that's a challenge as well for us is protecting the sources all year round, leaving aside

Dusty Rhodes  09:49

rivers that flow through cities because you know, they just looked dirty, but I'm thinking of rivers that we see in the in the countryside. Is it safe to drink water directly from those rivers

Niall Gleeson  10:00

It's rarely safe to drink water directly from from any rivers. I mean, that's why, you know, it is expensive water treatment, we we take the water out, we filter it, it does vary, not complicated, but it's a laborious filtration process, then we would also chlorinate, and quite often we add UV at the end to really kill off all the microbes, you know. So that's why, you know, people would say, Why do you, you know, why do we have shortages, but it is processing that water and making sure it's safe to drink is quite complicated. And an expensive we, you know, a lot of chemicals involved a lot of dosing, and a lot of energy in those UV systems.

Dusty Rhodes  10:35

I'm asking a lot of silly questions, because I know very little about water. But what's the difference between water then that you've processed, and it's coming out of a tap and water that I buy in a bottle in the shop?

Niall Gleeson  10:45

Yeah, now not much difference. Actually, I would, I would recommend nobody drink bottled water. I mean, really, the tap water all around the country we the EPA test is it's all we regularly tested ourselves, and it's very safe to drink. And if it isn't safe to drink, we'll put on boil water notices, and you'll see some of those coming and going in areas that to me that gives you the confidence or it should give the public the confidence that we know what's happening with the system. So if we're saying the water is safe to drink, and there's no restrictions on it, then I would say you should never go out buy bottled water. Some people vied for taste. But to be honest, I think, you know, if you really don't like some people can taste the chlorine, just by a little filter. And you can get that taken out, you know, in a home filter. But it's always very safe and good to drink. So why waste your money on bottled water?

Dusty Rhodes  11:30

Yeah, and it's more environmentally friendly, because you're not using a plastic bottles all the time. Like, you know, it's fantastic. So we have the water system within Ireland, we've got lots of it with needs to be cleaned. One of the other problems, I think that we have in Ireland is that we have a huge urban rural divide. So you're getting water, I would imagine often in rural areas, and then you've got to transport it to to the city areas. How does that work?

Niall Gleeson  11:54

Yeah, well, I suppose if you again, if you take you know, the supplies for Dublin come from Wicklow and Caldera, you know, and so they and they are piped into the into the city. If you take the artery example, you know, before of archery was built, I think around 1860 of archery plant was built. And I'd recommend anyone to go out and have a look, I think you can visit uncertain times a year, but it's really interesting. The Victorian engineering was superb. And you know, prior to that people have been drinking, taking the water from the canals and it was filthy and caused a lot of disease and all that kind of stuff. So this, this basically is a is a filtration system that just runs through sand beds. We've just recently we've upgraded that plant and we've put in a brand new plant, but that ran from the 1860s up to sometime last year when it was when we decommissioned it and provided a substantial amount about 20% of the water for Dublin. So we do rely on rural areas providing our water and one of the one of the big asks we're going to be asking in the near future is to take water from the Shannon and Shannon is to me a giant, slow moving body of water, it's a giant reservoir for the country. And we will be asking, asking the you know the people have on the channel to allow us take water from the pool of food, if not from cooler folk or from partying and bring it up to Dublin we'll be treating it and partying and then piping it up to Dublin that is the plan and we're working our way through our various permissions on that. And there is definitely the city the urban dwellers are stealing the water from from the rural areas and will drain the champion and all that kind of stuff like we will take maximum about one or 2% of the flow in the channel. And then if you've seen the Shannon flowing recently, it's a tremendous river there's plenty of capacity. But the other thing to that project will take water all the way up to the Midlands. So we will be distributing into a rural areas and making big difference. And what we'll also do allow us to do is divert water that's currently being pumped into the city and Dublin will be able to divert some of those and pump those further sides of Archer might start to pump further south into Wicklow and then some of the sources up in north Dublin will pump north so it's a project for the Midlands and the east and it's definitely one that we hope the rural areas rural community around the Shannon where we're taking the offtake will will buy into you know

Dusty Rhodes  14:02

a lot of what we're talking about is getting clean water to people what about wastewater what qualifies as wastewater and how's it managed?

Niall Gleeson  14:10

Yeah, well, you know, anything when you flush your toilets, that's that's obviously wastewater and going into the into the a very complex system of drains. And also then you've got industrial wastes. So a lot of processing plants, a lot of pharmaceutical plants all would feed into our, into our networks, and then they would feed into our treatment plants. So you take the rings in plant, which is the biggest plant we have in the country, it deals with about 40% of the waste water in the country, that's dealing with enormous mix of you know, chemicals of whatever you put down the toilet in your house, and that's a real challenge too, because we have an awful lot of stuff that goes into toilets that shouldn't go into toilets like wet wipes, and and all that kind of stuff. They say they're biodegradable, they're not we pull about 60 tons of what we call rags out of the inlets of things end every month. It's a huge amount of MIT waste, solid waste material that's been put into the system unnecessarily, because really, you just throw it in the bin, and it would make life an awful lot easier and certainly reduce our costs and the taxpayers are paying our costs. So in the end, you're you'd be winning, you know, let's talk

Dusty Rhodes  15:18

about air. And specifically now, you know, we know there was a baptism of fire with Irish water, what changed when it became went from Irish water to escape Aaron?

Niall Gleeson  15:27

So if Garin was part of the or via group, so it was ourselves and gas networks, Ireland were joined together under this or via banner. So now, the issue air and Banner is the new entity is the new national authority. It's completely standalone, national authority utility for the country for provision of water. So that's the important thing. The other thing is, we've signed the framework agreements so that the water services staff and the local authorities will come across, under under the ich Garin banner. So, right now, we have about 30 of the 31 local authorities, the water services teams are under the management of each Garin staff. So it's like a merger of the old Irish water and the Local Authority staff coming together up together under a new banner, the SPR and banner, which is the national utility, but but we will have all these local operators and local people who have the local experience the local knowledge, and we'll be bringing the national sort of bringing in the European standards to the national drinking water tests, the wastewater tests and, you know, working together to, to make sure that the service that the communities get is second to none,

Dusty Rhodes  16:33

I was gonna ask you about that, again, these are things that you're planning, what are the goals for each get Aaron over the next 10 years.

Niall Gleeson  16:39

So we have, we still have, we still have, you know, certainly have some plans, some sorry, some towns and villages that are put are producing raw sewage into sea or the river. The aim is to get rid of those in the next couple of years, most of those have plans in place. And we will be getting, we'll have 95% of those reduced, but I think by the end of 2025. So that's the end of raw sewage going into either the sea or lakes, that's, that's a huge goal. The other one we have we do issue boil water notices on occasion. And there's some long term boil water notice that are very frustrating for people. And we are our aim is to get rid of all of those, we still may have some temporary boil water notices if there's an interruption in the plant or breakdown or extreme weather events. But ideally, we would take the vast majority of people off boil water notices, we have a project called the National Water Resources plan, which is basically has gone around and studied every single resource in the country. And that has been a huge exercise. And we've looked at sort of the resilience of those sources, what's going to what climate change is going to do to them. And the impacts, you know, what's the that area going to develop? Is it going to grow. And that's been a huge study, it's been open for consultation, people are fed into it. And that's our plan for what we're going to do with drinking water over the next 25 years. So that is to improve drinking water, get a very reliable source, provide more where there's growth and make sure that the you know the likes of Dublin can continue to grow, and other urban areas contingent on all of the projections or the population is going to keep growing. And

Dusty Rhodes  18:05

you mentioned climate change. And you know, we are seeing it very real as you know, kind of the weather that we've had this year, we've had glorious June, and then the opposite. And we've had floods kind of going into the winter and stuff like that is climate change, like something that you take very seriously.

Niall Gleeson  18:24

Yeah, we take it very seriously one from a sustainability point of view. So we're trying to make art, we are one of the biggest consumer of consumers of energy in the public sector. I mean, I think we're second the HSE only has because we we use huge amount of pumps and processes to actually process the drinking water and the wastewater. So we have a huge energy bill. And so we're trying to reduce that we're trying to take our energy from more renewable sources. But also we're seeing the impacts of climate change on our plants. So those very heavy rains on the drinking water plants, what you get is a lot of turbidity in the water, which is a lot of solids are mixed up in the water, a lot of if you imagine heavy rain going into River, it churns up everything that's in the in the in the riverbed and in the lake, in the lakes. So it makes our plants work an awful lot harder. So they, they some of them are can can struggle when we get those heavy rain events. But probably the biggest factor is the on the wastewater side. What we have in the original designs, and most of Europe has the same thing as we've got combined storm water and wastewater drains. So the in the vast majority of houses in your state and Dublin, the water that comes off your roof goes into the wastewater system. And the water that goes in off the road goes into the wastewater system as well. So when you get heavy, heavy rains, the wastewater system gets overloaded. And we have what are called storm water overflows. So rather than the water coming up to manholes, which is what would happen if we didn't have these. You have these overflows that allow the sewage, very dilute sewage to go out into rivers or rivers or directly into the sea through these overflow pipes. And that's one of the challenges that we're having where we're getting these more heavy deluge. And you can see it where people are talking about bathing water quality, and all that kind of thing. And sorry, people are becoming much more conscious because we're swimming all year round, actually swim all year round myself. So I'm in Dublin Bay. So I'm very conscious of the issue but as climate change, and as we get those more heavy event and rainfall events that is becoming a more acute problem, but to separate the two systems is a multi billion euro problem project. And I don't think we're, we're a long way for doing that. So what we've got to do is try and work with people upstream to sort of reduce those deluges reduce the, you know, maybe put in those stormwater butts in your house so that you can collect a certain amount of water before it starts overflow, instead of putting in tarmac or carbon lock, put in gravel, those kind of, we're working with the local authorities to see if we can allow more of that water to soak into the ground. Because as soon as it hits hard surfaces, it's straight into the drains and straight into the stormwater and that leads to the to the overflows.

Dusty Rhodes  20:52

And the when you're talking about big massive projects like that you need professional problem solvers that are engineers, what role do engineers play in the operation of each Garin?

Niall Gleeson  21:02

Yeah, look, we're very engineering heavy organization does enough, you know, between operations, you've got our construction site and our construction delivery side, they would be a lot of engineering design an upstream of that, you'd have an asset management team that we'd be looking at, where do we need to invest? What kind of equipment do we need to put in, then you have delivery, and then you have operations, all full with engineers, a lot of scientists in there as well let environment environmental people. So really, we have an awful lot of engineers, it's a great place for engineers to to work, I mean, from here, it's a fantastic area to work, you're delivering water for 4 million people a day, and you're taking their wastewater away. It's quite a fulfilling job. You know, it's it's a great place to work. But it's also very innovative, a lot of exciting stuff going on. So for engineers, I think we took 50 graduates in this year, not all engineers, probably about 20 engineers, but it is a good place to, to get experience and to grow and learn

Dusty Rhodes  21:54

what kind of skills make an engineer stand out in this particular sector.

Niall Gleeson  21:58

I do think I think problem solving skills, but I think you also need to be able to work with the community, we're very much you know, a people facing business, you know, when you're out there solving problems, or if there's leaks, or people are having discolored water, it's good for you to have a bit of a poor bit of the of the ability to talk to customers, and to explain in layman's terms, what are the issues because people don't really understand why, you know, why we're having a burst of Why's the water gun and when your water goes your head, it's it's a big deal. You know, it's there's a lot of stuff you can't do, you can't do now, most houses are supposed to have a you know, you have your water tank in the attic, and you're supposed to have that 24 hour storage. But regulation of plumbing isn't always great. And so sometimes when when the water runs out in the mains, people have problems immediately with, you know, showers and sinks that are fed from the main. So again, explaining those kinds of situations to people is, is useful. So a bit of rapport, I think, as well as being a good engineer.

Dusty Rhodes  22:49

If an engineer is listening to this today, and they're kind of thinking I want to get in on some really big projects. And this sounds like you know, very enticing, what kind of training should they have had up to this point? Or maybe what kind of continuous career development should they be looking at to be part of this Garin?

Niall Gleeson  23:07

Yeah, I look, I don't think there's a will. We have a lot of civil engineers, but we take mechanical, electrical, it's the engineering, discipline, the way you think, is the most important thing. I think, ability to change and be flexible, I think that's going to be really important going forward, you know that you are not soft innovation. As I've said to my own people, innovation is difficult, because the easiest thing for us to do is build the equipment we built last week, because we know it works. And we've delivered that. So trying to innovate trying to change. So it's tricky. So we want people coming in who are you know, entrepreneurial, and will think differently. And if we ask them to to work differently, and they'll, they'll, and change the way they're doing stuff. That's what we want, you know.

Dusty Rhodes  23:52

But I had something very similar when I went into RT first because I was entrepreneurial, or in the words of my manager, I was a troublemaker. And you always have this with a very large organization and people who've been there for decades and done things in certain ways. You're saying you want people to come in and shake that up a little, but it's kind of hard to do. So what's the reality of joining a really large organization and actually being able to have new ideas that you have being implemented?

Niall Gleeson  24:25

Yeah, look, a lot of it is because we have to do our day to day job and we have to deliver that water every day. Let's innovation can be tricky, but we are driving. Like our sustainability program is driving a lot of innovation. We're looking at, you know, solar panels on the roofs of buildings and that kind of stuff. We're also looking at, you know, things like biodiversity, so we want to put in more, you can put in what they call a constructed wetland, which is where you actually create because we are wetland that the wastewater flows through so there's no concrete, there's no pumps, there's no filters. It just literally goes through reedbeds very slowly and they're amazing for wildlife If they're amazing for plant life, and they suit populations of around 1000, to 2000, so small villages that can something, they're not really scalable beyond that, but when you get those the right factors, they're great. And for engineers, that's a real change in mindset, because we love pipes and pumps and concrete, you know what I mean? So, and tell them that you're putting in a bunch of plants there, and you got to pick the right plants. That's an anathema to some engineers, but it is, it is the way we need to start thinking of a mix of solutions, you know. So innovation is something that we were working very hard on. To me, it's looking at pilot projects and getting those to work and demonstrating them and then moving on. So I think you can, it is, you know, you can become institutionalized. But right now he's scared, this is quite dynamic, we've got a really good, we've got really good teams of people who are working to change things. And we've got such a, such a demand ahead, and so much work to do that we have to be innovative. Like, one of the things I'd love to see is, how do we fix pipe from the inside, because we've, we kind of keep digging holes at the rate we're doing. We've 64,000 kilometers of drinking water pipe around the country. So how can we possibly maintain that, by continuously digging up and ripping up pipes, we need to do somehow somehow work from the inside and, you know, through tunneling, or through whatever it is, and I don't know the solution. But somebody has to come up with that for me. And that's stuff we'd like to work on, you know. So you're

Dusty Rhodes  26:24

looking for people who are coming up with new ideas, and there is a fostering of new ideas within the organization, outside of the organization, you mentioned before to bring Irish drinking water up to EU standards. Are you getting innovation from in the EU and elsewhere in the world as to the quality of water and how we can do things better?

Niall Gleeson  26:42

Yeah, there's, I mean, there's lots of stuff going on. And we do we do, try and get me to talk to suppliers and see who's who's innovating and what's working. So yeah, all around Europe and around the world, there are there are people with with clever ideas, there's a lot of clever stuff around, there's an awful problem with leakage in the in the drinking water networks word about 36%. Nationally, as far as the leakage rates, which means a third of our water is going to waste, you know, which is a huge problem. But in Europe, the standard you know, the norm would be around 20%, which is still very high. So has water becomes more and more precious and the cost to make it becomes more and more expensive, looking at leakage and looking at clever ways to fix leakages because a real industry and the some really good stuff going on there like things like acoustic loggers where you put you literally listen to the pipes and see where the leaks are. And that kind of stuff, you know. So it's there's a lot of clever stuff, a lot of smart metering smart networks, they call them where you kind of you know exactly what's happening. We're a little bit away from that. But we're working towards getting those smart networks moving. So a lot of clever technology there as well. It's not just all, you know, digging holes in the ground.

Dusty Rhodes  27:49

No, it does. It sounds like there's a lot of innovation going on. There's a lot of change going on internally, and a lot of modernization which is going on and big problems which needs to be solved, which is fantastic. Do you think as you say you're very engineering heavy. Do you think you're going to be taking on more engineers in the immediate future?

Niall Gleeson  28:06

Definitely. Yeah. I mean, we're crying out for engineers at the moment. So we have a huge recruitment loan program going on. As part of our transformation to you know, the the scare and transformation program, we call it. One of the challenges we have is with our own teams and with the local authorities. A lot of there's a lot of gray hair. I mean, I have it myself, but there's a lot of people who are approaching retirement. So we knew we need a new batch of people coming through to to learn from the existing people, but also take over, you know, the operations and the construction of those sites. So yeah, we're definitely we need we need graduates, we need young engineers who with a few years experience and an even more senior engineer, so across the board we're looking for, for engineers and scientists and accountants and a lot of there's a lot of hiring going on in our industry. And the other area we're looking at is apprenticeships and technicians and those kinds of skills that we want to bring in more out as value.

Dusty Rhodes  28:57

Let me pull out a look at the bigger bigger picture because it can Aaron is just one of the as you say, you know, we've got power. We've got water, we've got the road networks and everything. Where does ishka Aaron's role sit in the building infrastructure to support the national economy?

Niall Gleeson  29:15

Yeah, look, I our friends in Northern Ireland water say there's no no cranes without drains. So we have an abundance of water, like I said at the start. So we should be able to attract industry that needs water. A lot of a lot of industries are very water heavy, but we need to make sure that the infrastructure is there to support that. So I think going forward that is going to be an area you know, as we maybe our tax benefits may not be as strong our national resource of water will will be a big selling point for the country. So definitely I think that will be a good point. But the reality is like a Dublin city without that water supply from the Shannon, towards the end of the decade or early in the next decade will be saying to people we can't take you can't build any more houses. We can't You can't we have no One more capacity for industry doubling this bowl as far as the you know, that we're taking 14% of the flow of the Liffey is being used by Dublin City, we're taking 40% of the river itself to for drinking water and process water. So that is not sustainable. We need it, we need an alternative supply. But, you know, how can you tell people that Dublin is stopped growing, that's just not a practical, that's just not practical. You know, I mean, people talk about, you know, diverting, make, you know, more spatial planning, putting the jobs in other parts of the country, but Dublin is not competing with cork, and Limerick, Dublin is competing with Frankfurt, and Birmingham, and, you know, not not necessarily Paris, but places like that, that that's where the competition that that's where we need to make sure that when we're when we're growing, or when, when we want to attract industry, or people into jobs, that, that we have a place that they can, they can get a house so they can that the industry can come in, and they'll del operate well with the water, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  30:56

finally, Niall to wrap up the podcast today I want to veer off into career progression and development. Because you've done very well starting off from, you know, kind of di t and then going up into into big projects, and then going into management, for people who are listening and that kind of thinking, I want to go more towards the top. What lessons have you learned yourself? That kind of helped you move up the ladder as at work?

Niall Gleeson  31:25

Yeah, look, you move from, I think the move from engineering from being an engineer, where you're kind of designing something or you're installing or fixing something, to moving into management, that's a big change in your in your head, you almost, you have to stop solving people's problems for them. So you know, you might as a more senior engineer, you might immediately say, Okay, I know that guy's problem, and I can tell them the answer. But actually, that's the wrong thing to do. First of all, you don't have the capacity anymore, because you've got lots of other people reporting to you. So you need people to solve problems themselves or to, to work themselves. So it's actually stepping back from the engineering side of things and becoming a team leader or showing the leadership. That's, that's a big transition. And I think that's something that people should learn. And it's hard to do. Because if you're, if you've got a technical speciality, or you, quite often we promote people based on their expertise. And the fact that they were a brilliant engineer, they become a 10 become a manager, that doesn't necessarily translate to being a great manager of people, you know. So it's, it's learning those, that scale of how to manage teams, and how to step back a little bit yourself and not solve the problems, but help the team solve the problems, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  32:36

and when was the first time you realize that?

Niall Gleeson  32:40

Yeah, I mean, I was I was up on a project in Finland, probably in one of my early projects, and there were, you know, there were problems with with the machine. And I was stepping into early with the commissioning engineer tried to solve the problem for him. And rather than, and at the same time, there was other problems having, you know, other other issues happening that I missed, because I was kind of doing the other thing I was going around, actually redoing wiring and things of that, you know what I mean? Because I, you know, I felt that was more capacity, but it wasn't really the management things that I should have been doing, I should have been looking at issues that were happening and issues around cost, and all that kind of stuff that I had probably missed as well. So from the commissioning point of view, everything went great. But from a budget point of view, we, we didn't do quite as well. So that was somewhere that was a an area where I kind of learned the lesson. Now it wasn't, wasn't huge losses, or huge money, but it was kind of you know, don't get into the detail in it.

Dusty Rhodes  33:34

It is a huge change in mindset where you're using your experience and your skill. And you're obviously you could be a very talented engineer, to not solve other people's problems. But to help use all that experience you have to help them figure out whatever the problem is, or to point them in the right direction. It's, it's, it's quite a thing, but it's worked very successfully for you. So congratulations on on all of your success. Also. Thank you Niall, for a fascinating interview today. I mean, it really has been eye opening as to the whole operation of Uisce Eireann and the amount of things you have to do and the scale of it and the amount of engineers you have in there as well working with it. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and just sharing a little bit of time telling us everything.

Niall Gleeson  34:17

Great, thanks, Dusty. It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much.

Dusty Rhodes  34:21

If you'd like to find out more about Niall and some of the topics we talked about today, you'll find notes and link details in the show notes area of your player right now. And of course you'll find more information and exclusive advanced episodes of our podcast at engineersireland.ie. Our podcast today was produced by dustpod.io. If you'd like more episodes, do click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. Until next time, from myself, Dusty Rhodes, thank you for listening.

Water Challenge: Niall Gleeson, CEO Uisce Éireann

The agriculture sector has had to embrace adaptability and innovation as it navigates new technologies and the climate crisis.

Today we’re diving into agriculture and discovering how engineers are developing solutions for a better future in the sector. We hear about their impressive sustainability efforts and how AI and automation are playing an important role.

Our experts today are Associate Professor and Vice Principal for Internationalisation in UCD College of Engineering & Architecture, Tom Curran, Mechanical engineer with Agrigear, Niall Pigott and Agricultural Inspector with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Robert Leonard.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

01:12 How the Department Of Agriculture uses engineering

04:12 Engineering in agriculture machinery

07:30 Current research in agriculture

09:26 Application of robotics and automation

14:22 Collection and analysing data from farms

15:31 Smart farming

17:03 Adapting the farming industry to new tech

21:40 The Ploughing Championships

23:01 Climate change challenges for the sector

24:48 Sustainability efforts in agriculture

GUEST DETAILS

Tom Curran is an Associate Professor and Vice Principal for Internationalisation in UCD College of Engineering & Architecture. He leads the Horizon Europe project, BioBeo, on innovative education for the bioeconomy with 15 partners across 10 European countries. He is the Director of the UCD MSc Environmental Technology degree programme. His research interests include waste management and air quality. He is a graduate of UCD's Engineering programme, holding a BE (Ag & Food), MEngSc (Environmental Engineering) and a PhD in Biosystems Engineering. He worked in production and environmental management in the food industry for a number of years before joining as faculty in UCD School of Biosystems and Food Engineering.

Website: https://people.ucd.ie/tom.curran

Social Media: https://ie.linkedin.com/in/tompcurran

Niall Pigott is a chartered engineer with extensive experience in mechanical design and manufacturing engineering, with strong quality compliance exposure. Comprehensive knowledge of Solidworks 3D CAD (computer aided design) and Lantek Expert CAM (computer aided manufacturing) software.

Website: https://www.agrigear.ie/wheel-rim-manufacturing 

Social Media: https://www.linkedin.com/in/niall-pigott-a5131638/

Robert Leonard holds an honours degree in Agricultural Engineering and a Masters in Mechanical Engineering.  He completed his PhD in UCD, the focus of which was looking at the development of decision support systems for spraying potatoes against late Blight and spray drift reduction techniques. Robert joined the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in July 2002.  His role is to provide technical specifications, to support agricultural industries, that meet required standards (including legal) in respect of Construction, Health and Safety, Animal Welfare and the Environment. To promote and implement specific measures supporting environmentally sustainable agriculture and to provide specialist expertise to various divisions and offices that are charged with implementing schemes associated with grant aid for agricultural and forestry related industries.

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/ 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

QUOTES

The research touches on the environmental impacts of the whole chain from the farm to the fork from getting the herbs out of the fields or foreign buildings, right through to processing of the food so that it's ready for consumers to eat in a safe manner, but also in the most sustainable way as well. - Tom Curran

The applications of robotics within agricultural engineering is really in its genesis mode and this sort of engineering will blossom in the very near future. This technology will not take away people's jobs, but it will actually enhance people's jobs. - Niall Pigott

There's a lot of technology coming from the fertiliser and pesticide application side looking at identifying weeds, diseases, and applying pesticide just to the points of where it's at using vision control. All that information can be fed into a higher level of AI to actually get them to understand what way to apply crops and to get the best return while having the least inputs. - Robert Leonard

I think the farming community in general is quite adaptive, they have to be. - Niall Pigott

In the future there's going to be a lot more robotic controls, but you need to be monitoring what's going on. It's not a case of just watching and letting the robots take over. The farmer needs to understand the information they're getting. - Robert Leonard

Farming is such a long standing industry, we all need farmers to produce our food. It's like everything else, some people are resistant to change naturally. I grew up on a farm and I’m currently a part time farmer. In speaking to and engaging with farmers, a lot of farmers are probably the most innovative people I know - Tom Curran

If we do a certain action, we have to take into account so many different factors; climate, nature, water, air, etc. This is a message I think that we need to communicate to the general public, how engineers and scientists are working to be more environmentally sustainable, but also to take into account changing weather patterns for the future. - Tom Curran

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes 00:00

Make yourself comfortable because we're about to find out some of the very high-tech engineering behind agriculture.

Tom Curran 00:06

I speak to a lot of farmers and in engaging with farmers as well, a lot of farmers are probably the most innovative people I know they have tight budgets and have to be realistic on what to do. And they use the resources available. And so I would say, you know, farmers are some of the most innovative people that I know.

Dusty Rhodes 00:25

Hello there. My name is Dusty Rhodes, you're welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal Podcast. Today, we're diving into the agricultural sector and discovering the differences and commonalities with engineering in general. We also hear how it's being impacted by sustainability and where AI is playing a part in its future. Joining us are three engineers who are passionate about creating a better future for the sector through innovation and sustainability measures. They are Associate Professor and Vice Principal for internationalisation in UCD College of Engineering and Architecture, Tom Curren. Tom, thank you for joining us today. 

Tom Curran

Good to be here. Thanks. 

Dusty Rhodes

Mechanical engineer with AgriGear Niall Pigott. How are you?

Niall Pigott 01:08

I'm very well thank you very much for having me. And agricultural inspector

Dusty Rhodes 01:12

with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine Robert Leonard thanks for giving us your time today. Good to be here. Robert, can I start off with yourself because the Department of Agriculture has got a terrific overview. How does the department view engineering specifically within the sector of agriculture,

Robert Leonard 01:32

within the sector, as well as it were a small team in the Department of Engineering from an engineering point of view, but it was it is very important to ensure I suppose quality buildings are coming from the ground side. And to ensure that the department grant aids for farm buildings and farm structures is to ensure that what we're granting provides good quality structures for farmers so that they will have the right longevity while balancing cost and also protecting the environment. So it's important to look after the environment. We're working with the latest technologies, having that input to the engineering input to ensure I suppose looking at correct arrays of concrete, correct steel sizes for buildings, but then machinery and equipment is suitable for the proposed projects and the work that needs to be undertaken agricultural sector so it's a very broad-ranging area in some ways. And while we're focusing on the grounds, it does feed out and is also used from a structural point of view for the storage of all slurries whether they're getting granted or not farmers have to follow the department's specifications and requirements.

Dusty Rhodes 02:41

Do you find it hard to push the engineering angle within the department? Or is there an openness to it?

Robert Leonard 02:46

There's an openness to us to ensure that I suppose it's pushing as far as the quality and the needs and the balance of what's been going on. As well as people ask: well why do we need some more steel in buildings... It's there to ensure that the building will be structurally sound it will last in improving animal welfare actually, animal welfare is right from ventilation making sure the air quality is right. So the bomb does see the need for all of this to make sure it is all correct. And because it has an impact on the welfare and to make sure his structures are correctly built to ensure that it protects the environment, protects water quality, the very important aspects in the department sees the need to follow those and make sure they're right. There's a lot of legislation around that as well.

Dusty Rhodes 03:32

Can you give me any kind of example or a particular project that demonstrates that

Robert Leonard 03:36

I suppose it's a few years ago, but we we continually develop our concrete specifications we brought in the use of what they call a ggbs count of cement. So as the ground granite slags to reduce the carbon emissions from concrete so that has been brought in was fully allowed within the department concrete specifications with the concrete we need to ensure the correct durability and the use of novel Alice's actually helps to improve that so ensures we have good quality concrete that's going to last while Bama ongoing basis.

Dusty Rhodes 04:12

Niall kind of came across to you and asked you about engineering and how you see it differing in the agriculture sector.

Niall Pigott 04:20

Specifically in the machinery section, which is my forte you feel like we deal as an aggregator with a lot of the agricultural engineering manufacturing companies in terms of the likes of Mike Hale over in male IBM machinery down in Tipperary, we manufacture wheels for a whole variety of customers, and we develop solutions for people to enable them to meet and contend with the challenge of the different climate that is going to be hosted upon us. The issue of, for example, slurry spreading, which has become very almost politically motivated in terms of the influence of the likes of Dutch practices which are very restrictive in terms of the timelines and the quantities of effluent that can be spread throughout the spreading season, the application of engineering to promote and safely handle the likes of that manure going out in terms of its making the nutrients available to the growing plants, the ongoing engineering input into that is determining and helping farmers and contractors deal with the application in terms of getting more minerals at the right time, but also, conserving the soil so that you're not compacting the soil, as previous generations would have done in terms of heavier machinery is now being used. So larger tyres, larger wheels, to enable more application to go out, but conserving the soil. And it's it's an ongoing issue in terms of labour requirements as well, because the farmers and contractors are getting such a big problem. Now with labour, people want to sit at a computer all day every day, rather than sit on a machine all day every day. So in terms of the engineering input, certainly from an aggregator perspective, we're seeing a lot more larger equipment requirements, not just in Ireland, but Europe-wide. And also, we also supply customers to Costa Rica and New Zealand, Australia, and Canada. So the engineering in pores to wash farmers and contractors are doing at the moment is the machinery is getting bigger, but you have to be able to cope soil-wise with the conservation of your productive land at the end of the day because the soil is the key, you have to preserve us conserve it and make sure it is fit for purpose else, nothing will grow.

Dusty Rhodes 07:30

These are engineering problems that we don't hear of often on the podcast. And I mean, really is eye-opening to hear how you have to think about that about the machinery and the land and the quality of the soil and everything. Tom, can I swing over to you because you're with UCD? And you're kind of more looking at the research side of things what kind of research is going into agricultural engineering today?

Tom Curran 07:51

To see I think, going back to what Robert and Niall were saying they're very much the research touches on the issues that they've raised there. And in terms of the environmental impacts standard those to the whole agri-food sector, it's not just at the farm level, buildings that Robert was referring to, and ventilation, HVAC submissions to the soil, Niall was referring to nutrient management, all those issues are covered in terms of research. And I would say it's across the whole chain from the farm to the fork from getting the herbs out of the fields or foreign buildings, right through to processing of the food so that it's ready for consumers to be in a safe manner, but also in the most sustainable way as well.

Dusty Rhodes 08:37

You let the horizon euro project BioBeo be that it's a tough one.

Tom Curran 08:40

Well, let's say the Irish partners called us file Bill file is referring to the fire economy and Bill beating the the Irish word for live our lives. So that's really all about it's a European project. I'm the coordinator of this. And again, it's a European project with 15 partners across 10 European countries. And we're developing education lesson plans in primary and secondary schools. And it's all about the bioeconomy the living economy around us, which includes farming, food production, forestry, and the marine. So we're trying to get the message out to younger people and to highlight opportunities for in their later career as well that they could go into engineering and science careers.

Niall Pigott 09:26

I would like to add to the previous comments in terms of the application of robotics under horizon scanning that is going on, in particular to crop production and crop protection with the application of robotics in agricultural engineering this is an industry now that is coming really strongly on there's a lot of research going on, particularly in the UK, where I hate to refer to the Brexit word because they have had rate issues, sourcing at seasonal labour that previously would have gone across from the likes of Eastern Europe to harvest fruit crops, for example. So now the UK is putting a lot of work into the likes of robotic harvesting, to solve or potentially solve a lot of their labour issues. But the applications of robotics and its application within agricultural engineering is really in its genesis mode, the application of this sort of engineering will blossom, I think, in the very near future, to cover a whole host of more applications, because this technology will not take away people's jobs, but it will actually enhance people's jobs. So you will have robotic manufacturers, you will have robotic programmers, and then you have people who will actually maintain the robots in the field. People are scared of technology, when they hear of robots, for example, the likes of robots manufacturing cars, but out in the field, it's a different thing. Because you have to make them weatherproof, and waterproof, they can work 24/7, they don't need tea breaks, they don't need cigarette breaks, and they can work unsupervised to get the job done. So from certainly my background, reading in the journals, the scientific journals, and also the general price and farming media. This is an area that will grow.

Dusty Rhodes 11:36

Robert, I see you nodding your head, there, is the department kind of looking at automation and even advanced robotics?

Robert Leonard 11:42

We're seeing a lot we're seeing a lot of it already coming through as far as one of the older technologies now, if you call it that is actually robotic milking of cows. So that's becoming quite commonplace. Now, you have mundane tasks, when taken over a scraping of animal housing by robots are also saying that in the horticultural sector, it's coming in is automatic weeding, and planting fully, robotically controlled systems. So to reduce pesticide usage, reducing fertilisation, so you're placing fertiliser, just where it's required. These are technologies that are actually in the fields already as it is. And there's a lot of technology coming on from the fertiliser and pesticide application side looking at identifying weeds, diseases, and applying pesticide just to the points of where it's at using vision control, to actually decide whether or not to actually apply the pesticide to a particular plant. And it is developing also then going on into full control of machinery in the field, steering control the machinery, these are things that are actually they are now being used by farmers, to assist them to maximise their output, minimise inputs really to get that high return. All that information can be fed into a higher level of AI to actually get them to understand what way to apply crops and to get the best return while having the least inputs.

Dusty Rhodes 13:12

And here at home, how do you see automation and robotics affecting engineering and agriculture?

Tom Curran 13:20

Wealth is definitely a growing area. As Robert and Niall gave examples there, there are pieces of equipment already like robotic milking sensors, right through the agri-food chain, I think you will see a lot more of the use of sensors and real-time information going back to the users, it may well be a case of in the future that there will be sensors used for compliance issues. So for example, as we know, climate change and biodiversity crisis is upon us. And I could see that you know, sensors could be used to show that the farmers are actually doing a good job in reducing their impact on the environment, improving water quality, reducing emissions of gases as well, going right into the food industry as well. There's a huge potential there for the use of inline sensors in the process in factories, let's say in dairy milk processing, making systems a lot more efficient, reducing their energy and impact on the environment.

Dusty Rhodes 14:22

So you've mentioned automation, we've mentioned robotics, you've brought in sensors. Tom, can you tell me a little bit about AI? And you've given great examples of what we could do with the data. But from an engineering point of view, who analyses the data, and how?

Tom Curran 14:37

Well, I suppose it depends on the application. There's a lot of research going on in terms of how the data could be used in the most efficient way possible. And because you're getting so much data, let's say harvesting if you like you could be generating like 1000s and millions of data points, but it's actually no good to you unless you analyse it properly, and that's where we get on to machine learning, like artificial intelligence, how can we actually use that data and a user-friendly manner so that they can actually take actions or decisions make decisions on that basis. Now, some of those decisions could be made automatically by, let's say, as was mentioned earlier by Robert in terms of weeding, but also could be sending a message to a farmer, let's say on a dairy farm, say this cow has a lameness problem, you need to check this cow, as the case may be moving away from artificial intelligence just a little bit.

Dusty Rhodes 15:31

Niall, have you kind of seen the introduction of smart farming I'm thinking of, like drones and sensors and the Internet of things is that becoming part of your world,

Niall Pigott 15:45

certainly, for example, the likes of the harvesting equipment that's out there. And now I'm thinking of a combine harvester that's used for harvesting cereals, wheat, grains, barley, oats, et cetera. So the technology that is available to harvest and monitor on the move, and also to direct a machine that doesn't need input for staring, for example, down a field to tell it where to go, it's satellite driven, the material that the machine is harvesting, is being continuously monitoring the terms of, for example, moisture content, so the farm manager, he can then tell his grain drying operation back at base, does the grain need to be dried to a specific moisture content and how much rain is coming through from the machine. So it's the entire process of the field produce going into post-harvesting technology, the stream of information being generated, is of immense value to the farmer on the farm manager in terms of what they need to do with that product to get it fit for purpose to the fork.

Dusty Rhodes 17:03

Can I ask I was certainly for Niall, and also to Tom, and to Robert. Farming is a very traditional industry, do you find that farmers are resistant to these new changes?

Niall Pigott 17:16

I think the farming community in general is quite adaptive. I now think they have to be, for example, milking robots. I know of several people around, Jimmy where I am that have installed robots over the years. Now it takes the drudgery out of milking cows. And they have seen benefits in terms of brim. Of course, the yield does increase because the cow can choose when to melt. But it doesn't replace the good herdsmen shift our herd woman's ship in the farming business, because for example, that robot one won't tell you when a cow was laid, it will tell you the fat content and the protein content, for example of the milk. But it won't tell you when the animal has an issue with a sore foot. So you still need the input of a good farmer, a good contractor, and a good operator to make the most of the technology that they are embracing.

Dusty Rhodes 18:23

Robert, it's a huge amount of technology that we're talking about and very technical, and what when it comes to the future of the industry? What kind of obstacles do you think the industry is facing?

Robert Leonard 18:36

I suppose from a firing point of view, it's a certain amount was the scale of some of the smaller farmers to get them to take up this technology that is there. You have a lot of the larger dairy or tillage farmers who have the funds or have had the knowledge they are, they're rapidly taking it up. But it's I suppose it's a fragmented industry in a lot of ways as well. And that can take time to develop as well as bringing through younger generations who understand computerisation as well. In the future there's going to be a lot more monitoring, I'd say a lot more robotic controls, but you need to be monitoring what's going on. It's not a case of just watching and sort of using it letting the robots take over farmer needs to understand the information they're getting. And actually apply that information. It's down to us from an engineering point of you'd be able to translate all this data and say, Look, this is what this means, you need to be able to combine which pieces of information you need to bring together to combine and to be able to highlight those bits for the farming community.

Dusty Rhodes 19:44

Tom, you want to jump in?

Tom Curran 19:46

Yeah, just on the point of your question about whether there is resistance to change from farmers much. Farming I suppose is such a long-standing industry. We all need farmers to produce our food. Yeah, I would say it's like Everything else, you know, some people are resistant to change naturally. But I think I would also say on the other hand, like I grew up on a farm and am currently a part-time farmer as well. But I speak to a lot of farmers and in engaging with farmers as well, a lot of farmers are probably the most innovative people I know, for example, I've been running a module and new city, a biosystems, engineering design challenge or applying engineering to the agri-food sector effectively. I've been running this module for 20 years now. And it's open to any student in use to take it. But I find the students who are the most inventive are the students who have grown up on firm, they just have this innate ability that they look at what the resource they have available to them, and make something of it. And I think there's that natural innovation spark in local farmers, they have a tight budget, and they have to be realistic and what to do with it. And they use the resources available. And so I would say, you know, farmers are some of the most innovative people that I know that there is a wilderness with a lot of farmers to adopt new things. And I would say going back to Roberts Department of Agriculture as well, there's a new scheme and now in operation called acres, and I think that will really drive further innovation in terms of climate change, also helping with the biodiversity as well. I hear now farmers discussing their biodiversity scores, they're comparing each other's performance and see what we'll do for next year to improve those scores which will be financially rewarded as well by the department scheme.

Dusty Rhodes 21:40

You're saying they're about you know, farmers are comparing scores of that other haven't chats and stuff like that. Can I ask you about the kind of engineers who are working in the farming sector heard about events like you know, the ploughing Championships which we have every year? Is that important for engineers to get together and share ideas and inspire each other?

Niall Pigott 21:58

I would say yes. Going around picking tyres. It's always an interesting exercise to see what the fellow next door has come up with within the last 12 months. And there's always, you know, always done it that way. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's your shop window, the ploughing championships. And we always look forward to it. And I agree, here, we have an enormous display with an enormous amount of wheels and tires on it. It doesn't stop you going around looking at what other people are doing. Everybody's trying to improve. Every engineering industry is of a continuous improvement nature, you have to be involved in sustainability, number one. But competitiveness number two was, well, the pollen show, it's the main show for agriculture and engineering on the island of Ireland. So it's a huge sharp window. And it's an opportunity to demonstrate and broadcast what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Dusty Rhodes 23:01

Let me just get into one or two final questions with the All eyes because I want to ask you about sustainability. And we've mentioned climate change. I mean, it's such a huge thing at the moment. What challenges from your point of view is the agriculture sector facing due to climate change, the engineers need to work on

Robert Leonard 23:19

This a huge, I suppose there's a huge range of areas to focus on is the changing climate changing weather patterns. So you're looking at changing harvests plant planting seasons, machinery needing to change, and how to look after livestock in the changing climate. Weather can do weather patterns. For more extreme weather events, it's protecting farm yards, but also I suppose ensuring land is correctly drained, the drains are going to the correct level of drainage, but also then putting in areas so wetlands to actually slow down water movement. So it's not just okay, if you move all the rainwater off the land too quickly, you're gonna cause problems further downstream. So it's, there's a tricky balancing act to be put together in terms of how water is managed, how biodiversity is managed, the application of pesticides, fertilisers, and how to do it, without them being washed away. And where the crops are actually getting the correct return. You're getting what they need. And then I suppose looking at how to harvest crops can potentially wet weather are additional drying or maybe irrigation, which we haven't had to use before. To a great extent.

Dusty Rhodes 24:34

Tom, can I ask you kind of about climate change and sustainability because it is happening all over the world? What innovations are you seeing through research abroad and here in Ireland that are being explored by engineers to address those challenges?

Tom Curran 24:48

Well, I would think, part of the reason for bigger machines and with more, let's say sensors on them as well, would be that you have probably a shorter time window to do certain jobs throughout the year like planting or harvesting. It's very much tied to the climate and weather patterns as well. And going back also to the point of smart farming, is there such a thing as smart farming? Well, it's well established now because everybody has a smartphone in their pocket. They're looking at their weather apps to see if they're making decisions on their farm based on the weather forecast. And I think that that will develop further into the future that will be more automated messages coming back from maybe service providers in the agriculture sphere, that now's a good time to do ABC, whatever the job is. It'll be more tailored messages. And I think there's a lot of work being done as well in terms of lifecycle assessment, looking at the actual carbon footprint of various actions throughout the farm in terms of both in terms of nutrient management, how crops are harvested, how animals are managed, how buildings are managed, conserving energy, and nutrients throughout the whole agri-food chain, and I think everything is interlinked. And we see this, there's a message that we are promoting through our European project on BioBeo in connecting students in primary and secondary schools Well, we have teams such as food glue, Life below Water, Forestry, outdoor learning, and interconnection is. So it shows if we do a certain action, we have to take into account so many different factors climate, nature, water, air, etc. And this is a message I think that we need to communicate to the general public as well, how engineers and scientists are working to be more environmentally sustainable, but also to take into account changing weather patterns for the future. Well,

Dusty Rhodes 26:50

Can I throw a question out to all of you have any of you seen any particularly good innovations or examples of how other people are addressing these issues of sustainability and climate change?

Robert Leonard 27:03

I suppose one of the areas of seeing this poses in the slurry spreading technology is, a couple of companies, they're putting together sensors to actually evaluate slurry as it's being spread in terms of its nutrient content. So actually adjusting the spreading of slurry to maximize the output. So as it goes around the field, the actual tanker is actually adjusting the application rate. So you're getting a known level of nutrients applied per hectare, to reducing the amount of artificial fertilizers that will be actually used. So you're really getting a very accurate reading of what's been applied where so as you say, you got that good control of in terms of protecting the environment, and then actually, really benefiting from the nutrients that are in in the slurry as well.

Tom Curran 27:52

Yeah, just to highlight another project I'm involved in it's been funded by Enterprise Ireland and some of the dairy companies as well. It's Jerry Krause and Technology Center, combining the research of a number of third-level institutes and charges, etc. And the dairy industry are involved in as well. So it's looking at the whole chain of milk production coming through the factory gate and how that's encouraged in an environmentally friendly way and it's looking at things like the milk characteristics coming in from different firms and how that will impact on the process itself inside in terms of producing different products and trying to do that in the most energy-efficient way and reducing carbon footprint, water use, etc. In washdown. Also looking at the wastewater coming out of that process, and what can be done with that, because I performed that's, that's a cost to the companies, because potentially in the future, that wastewater could be converted into a fertilizer product or biofertilizer, which thing could be marketed as in terms of organic farming. And I see that not just in the dairy industry, but in other sectors as well. And that's an opportunity I think, for the farming community and the food industry as well to produce these bio-fertilizers and it would tie in with some of the things that Niall and Robert have been saying as well but nutrient management on firms how manure can be sprayed on these bio properties biofertilizers will be part of that picture to make farming more sustainable in the future as well. Oh guys, after

Dusty Rhodes 29:26

I'm not from a farming background myself, so I was kind of I didn't know what to expect on our podcast today. But I can tell you, you've definitely given me a whole ton of food for thought. Tom Curran from UCD Niall Pigott from AgriGear and Robert Leonard from the Department of Agriculture. Thank you so much for your insight, and for sharing with us today. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. If you'd like to find out more about Tom, Robert, or Niall and some of the topics that we spoke about today, you will find notes and link details in the show notes area on your podcast player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and exclusive advance episodes of our Engineers Ireland AMPLIFIED podcast online at engineersireland.ie. Our podcast was produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland. If you'd like more episodes, just click the Follow button on your podcast player to get access to past and future shows automatically. Until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes thanks for listening.

Ploughing Forward: The Engineering Behind Agriculture

With a career that spans over 38 years, Gerry shares an extraordinarily unique insight into some of Ireland’s largest and most crucial infrastructures.

Having led the delivery of PPP capital projects for highways, water, healthcare, schools and flood relief, Gerry shares how his approach to planning has evolved from his earlier career, working on the Dublin to Galway motorway, to how achievable he believes EU targets banning all carbon vehicles by 2035 really are.

Learn about the Glasgow industrial investment area project, that lead to RPS being named one of the first carbon champions by the institute of civil engineers. Gerry also explores how to overcoming the challenges of controversial planning projects and explains why transparency is vital.

Gerry describes an engineer as someone who is motivated to do good and as he reflects on his wealth of work, he can be proud of the incredible amount of good work he has done for Irish infrastructure.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Topics we discussed include:

01:38 – What inspired him to become an engineer

05:36 – Why was the Corrib Gas Fields project controversial

07:27 – How to handle situations where there is conflict

15:47 -  His work with the EPA and the controversy surrounding the Poolbeg Incinerator.

26:31 – How Covid accelerated the development of new technical solutions to support remote working.

28:03 – The development of digital solutions such as 3D design and how it assists in planning projects such as housing,  illustrating how factors such as height might impact a design.

28:30 – What is Digital Twin?

33:11 – The issue of climate change due to emissions and the need to reduce the use of fossil fuels and find alternatives.

36:15 - Looking forward to Ireland’s future and the need for better if we are to achieve the desired target for electric vehicles.

Guest details

Gerry has over 38 years’ experience working as an engineer, environmental consultant, regulator and Director in the private and public sectors.

This has included leading strategic reviews, strategy development and implementation of change programmes across a range of companies. He has chaired a number of national committees and has acted as an advisor and programme reviewer to third level institutions, EU governments and public authorities. Currently he is Senior Consultant of RPS Group Limited and RPS Consulting Engineers Limited.

He chairs the management boards of both organisations. Gerry is a Chartered Engineer, a Chartered Water and Environmental Manager and a Fellow of Engineers Ireland. In 2018 Gerry was selected as European Engineering Consultancy CEO of the year. He is currently President of the Association of Consulting Engineers in Ireland and a member of the Construction Industry Council. He has led the delivery of PPP capital projects for highways, water, healthcare, schools, flood relief and other public infrastructure.

Contact details

https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerry-carty-54868817/

https://www.rpsgroup.com/

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/

Quotes

A metro in Dublin has been proposed for many, many years. A city like Dublin ultimately will have to have a metro if it continues to grow.

Over the last 20 years, the planning process has become so complicated and difficult, that the time periods to get a project like the Galway - Athlone motorway through the system are now double to triple the time is what it took 10 to 15 years ago.

One of the big, controversial projects at the time was the proposal to build an incinerator in Poolbeg. Dublin's waste was being dumped literally in the counties adjacent to Dublin and that caused a huge amount of pollution.

Our approach is always to be as open and transparent as possible. You know, if you are intending to develop something, and it has an impact on people and on an area or region, set out what you intend to do, set it out, clearly communicated clearly engage with the public know, generally, there is wide acceptance of something that is perceived to be of benefit at that very early stage, where issues often arise as you get to the selection stage where you're looking at two or three options.

In Ireland's context, very significant onshore wind development in the last 20 years, at one point in November 60% of our electricity, on particular days came from renewables, which is fantastic.

Much like broadband needs to be rolled out nationally, motorways need to be rolled out nationally and the national infrastructure for electric vehicles needs to be rolled out. There is a gap in the infrastructure of the country at the moment.

Transcription

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate AI transcription of the episode.

Dusty Rhodes  0:01 

Right now on amplified the engineers journal podcast, we're about to meet Senior Consultant at RPS group Gerry Carty.

Gerry Carty  0:08 

What kind of first makes an engineer I think a person who is motivated to do good basically, I don't think there's a stereotype for wanting you can't do an engineering is both the trend or the core of so engineering relies upon learning for what you have done and doing it better. There are all those innovative solutions, but they're also basketcase solutions. So having learned a lot through experience using that experience, well is a very apart and hard to find engineers development.

Dusty Rhodes  0:59 

Hello, my name is Dusty Rhodes and welcome to amplified the engineers journal podcast, which is a we're chatting with the Senior Consultant at RPS group, a professional services firm of 5000 consultants and service providers operating in 125 countries globally. A chartered engineer, he has worked as an engineer, environmental consultant, regulator and director. And today he'll be sharing some of his 38 years of very significant experience in the industry. It's a pleasure to welcome Gerry Carty. Gerry, how are you? Very well, dusty.

Gerry Carty  1:29 

Thank you.

Dusty Rhodes  1:30 

So Jerry, what hit you to become an engineer when you're a kid? Were you a little 10 year old guy, I want to do that, or did you find the light later in

Gerry Carty  1:38 

life? I think I discovered I wanted to be an engineer around my 50 or in in secondary school. I grew up on a small farm. And typical another west of Ireland family. Nobody had gone to college, I got interested in social issues and saw this course advertised for a new ag at the time, which was called industrial engineering, but it was actually not industrial engineering, as it were sold and marketed. It was more of a social engineering, looking at communities and looking at how to improve society. And I suppose the motivation was to do course, like Das, which would help me contribute towards probably the betterment of society. And that was a, I suppose, a laudable ambition at the time. It didn't quite work out, actually.

Dusty Rhodes  2:31 

Well, now, I argue with you there. I think you've had a very illustrious career which we'll go over a few of the highlights tell me about RPS though Firstly, because it's a very sizable group. I said it's 5000 people 125 countries. Tell us a little bit about the the Irish operation.

Gerry Carty  2:47 

Sitting in Ireland we have five main offices in Dublin, core Galway, we have an office in Sligo, another office in Belfast. And we provide a what I call integrated engineering and environmental services that includes planning includes communication. So it involves taking projects from a concept as in somebody says, Well, we think we might like to do something developing that far them developing out the kind of concept into a business plan are into a feasibility stage. And then taking it through from there right through the whole process of getting planning, approvals, which can be a very lengthy process and difficult process through to tendering, selecting a contractor managing the construction, Afters, ie the maintenance period and then in right into operation. So our services span the full range of activities, we imply engineers, we imply planners, we imply scientists, communication specialists, if if you have a scale of any kind, we practically imply people from multi multi backgrounds. And interestingly in recent years, there has been a huge downturn in numbers going into engineering courses across Ireland. So our range of specialists now includes maths graduates, physics graduates, people from multiple backgrounds who can very easily adapt to the engineering wars and the digital world that we're at.

Dusty Rhodes  4:17 

And what kind of jobs would the company be known for recent stuff that you've done?

Gerry Carty  4:20 

So starting in Dublin, the extension of Dublin airport terminal one would have been quite a significant project in the Celtic Tiger era. Probably the range of projects we're best known for is the development of the national motorway network. So back in the late 90s, a study was done called the national roads needs study, which was basically a framework for the development of roads and motorways nationally and the government of the day decided to go with a more or less we're in this work. We completed the first connection which was the Galway, the West Coast to Dublin back in 2009. So roads broke draped all over the country, including roads projects in Scotland, and the UK, we have done things like the upgrading of the ballymore Eustace water treatment plant, which is the principal Water Treatment Plant serving the city of Dublin. We have done the gas pipeline to the west, which was the expansion of the network from when it was largely Doblin centric to the west coast and down to Limerick, which has facilitated the connection, for example of the carob gasfields, which is another project Tweed Heads, usually controversial at the time, but actually hugely beneficial to the economy and to the niche now as as as a source of energy.

Dusty Rhodes  5:43 

Why was it controversial?

Gerry Carty  5:44 

It was controversial for a number of reasons. I think one of them was that it was initially promoted by a relatively small company, and they got into difficulties at the planning stage. Perhaps, you know, in hindsight, they didn't have the resources sufficient to deliver a major project, and that men stashed. They want to proceed, but perhaps we're not in a position to invest as much as they showed, they selected a site to come onshore, they applied for planning, they were refused planning, it was taken over then by by shell. And at that point in time, we were appointed and had to see a whole new planning for the project, etc. But there were certain constraints on on the project at that, by that time, what were they now there were things like where we could come ashore, prior work had had identified particular locations, and, you know, various issues, then a rule was set in terms of the pressure off the gas, and the pipeline, its proximity to housing, all of these are reasonable concerns. We we do have specialist advice and assistance. And we worked our way through all of those issues, took quite a number of years, took quite a lot, roughly years and with the local community, what eventually in 2016 17, the project was completed. But that was about 17 years from commencement of the process to completion. And that that wouldn't be on typical of what's now happening nationally on major projects today.

Dusty Rhodes  7:27 

So if you are approaching a project, and it is controversial in nature, or are there are people who are very, very against the project, what kind of course of action would you advise to take? Well,

Gerry Carty  7:39 

our approach is always to be as open and transparent as possible. You know, if you are intending to develop something, and it has an impact on people and on an area or region, set out what you intend to do, set it out, clearly communicated clearly engage with the public know, generally, there is wide acceptance of something that is perceived to be of benefit at that very early stage, where issues often arise as you get to the selection stage where you're looking at two or three options. And then the lobby groups decide that they do not want it's it's it's like housing. Currently, a lot of the objections to housing come from people who already have houses, and often good quality houses in the vicinity of where a development is needed as desirable, perhaps even necessary, because it's well serviced by public services. But they see the opportunity to object and there is an objection closure out there. It is very rare to see proponents of a project or infrastructure, getting positive publicity on a regular basis, the media do look for the controversy, and they look for a controversial angle. And they will cover that because that generates interest and publicity.

Dusty Rhodes  9:01 

So you think that a good way to tackle that is to be open, give information, make it accessible to people, but not to get too detailed? Because you need the flexibility to be able to reach a compromise?

Gerry Carty  9:12 

Exactly. The objective is to find the best solution or the optimum solution. It's not to find the only solution. There is always more than one solution. We do a lot of what I would call public infrastructure, which is infrastructure of benefit to society. And it's very interesting that people think in terms of the short term, generally in Ireland, rather than the long term, the long term infrastructure that we would deliver. The typical planning period should be somewhere between about 25 and 100 years, depending on what you're building. Now, how many people actually are willing to take forward for example, Ireland is due to have a population of around 8 million by 2040. That's the figure in the national plan. break that down into the increase East that's going to be needed in our major towns and cities where most of those people will be housed. And you can guarantee dash. So for example, one of the objectives of dasht plan or framework is to have balanced regional development. That would mean massive population increases in the designated cities such as Limerick. Slagle Washford. Cork, it means a level of planning, which is not your local increase, it means doubling the population of some of those locations. But that level of planning is required, if we are to have a well serviced functioning infrastructure that meets the needs of our society by 2040 to 2060. And there's no getting away from that and people will people do have great difficulty understanding that. But yes, it is an absolute necessity for society, otherwise, we will end up in chaos. And one of the big things that's positive things happening at the moment is the review of planning legislation, because our planning system has has descended into an almost endless cycle of objections, court cases, and judicial reviews. Basically,

Dusty Rhodes  11:12 

you say you're planning for 2550 100 years into the future when you first started working on the Galway Dublin motorway project. I mean, you were kind of new ish in the game, would that be fair to say?

Gerry Carty  11:25 

Hey, it will be very fair to say it would be it would be fair to say?

Dusty Rhodes  11:32 

Well, what I was gonna ask was, I mean, you have an awful lot of experience, and you've given very sage insight. But when you were working on the Dublin Galway motorway that was kind of all new to you, what lessons did you learn from that, that you would apply to that long term planning?

Gerry Carty  11:49 

Well, to give you to give you an idea, the appointment to work on that project happened around the turn of the era. So around 2000 by 2004, we had gossips at the stage where we were going into an oral hearing to get the rules approved. So the selection process had had largely been completed, and it was waiting the confirmation by unboard fanola. That got approved in 2005 started construction in 2007 and was opened in 2009. So that's less than a 10 year cycle. And that probably is reasonably acceptable for a large project. If I was to do a comparison of a project today, and take the Galois ring road as a comparison, it started life earlier. It's still on the cohorts 23 years later. That's the practical difficulties that are occurring in Ireland today. Other projects, other major infrastructure will be hitting similar bottlenecks. So the planning system was amended back in 2002 as a new Planning and Development Act. In fact, over the last 20 years, the planning process has become so complicated and difficult, that the time periods to get a project like the Galway ad low and through the system are now doubled to triple the time is what it took 1015 years ago. In other jurisdictions, the timeline required is far shorter, the opportunities to contribute exist at particular stages, they're within defined time limits, they deal with the issues in a very practical way. And therefore they get their projects and the necessary developments through the system. And nobody is suggesting that we should have undesirable developments on an ongoing basis, we largely work I'd say on national level infrastructure, I think there are very few of any projects we have ever worked on that ultimately are not bits. And they're they're proposed for a reason. They're not speculative. They're not geared towards just generating a big return for an investor. They are there for the public good. They are there to serve the people of the country. And I think that's the gap and understanding is that the modern era people and psychologists will say this, I have a very short term horizon as in what's in it for me in the next six months or next year. How do I benefit from it? Will this inconvenience me in any way as sustained firm? How will it assist us? So even if this was for example, putting in a bus lane on a local road, you guaranteed it will be object even if the demand is there on that road, far better public services for a regular timetable, etc. So it's it's it's a cultural issue as well as a political issue. But certainly more effort needs to go into communicating the positive benefits of doing things right doing work and doing them for the right reason, particularly on large infrastructure, particularly on public projects. It all, for example, the Metro in Dublin has been proposed for many, many years. A city like Dublin, ultimately will have to have a metro if it continues to grow. There isn't only one solution, there is the solution that is on the table at the moment, which would make its way through the process, it would be an interesting exercise, to see how long it actually takes to get through the current process, or if the amendments that the government are now proposing to the planning acts, whether it would be possible to process them in a shorter timeline, but looking at the current planning process, that project could be in the planning process for the next 10 years.

Dusty Rhodes  15:47 

You were talking a lot from a civil engineers point of view and objections from various different bodies. But you've also worn the hat as a regulator, because you did some time with a did some time. I don't mean it that way. But you were with the Environmental Protection Agency for a number of years was that kind of like going from poacher to gatekeeper it's, it's different hats completely, isn't it?

Gerry Carty  16:08 

It's different hats completely. The end of 93, I was at a point in my career where I had worked in a company, a number of companies, I had done some overseas work, and a brand new organization, the Environmental Protection Agency was being set up. And I saw it as an opportunity to do I suppose wash I felt motivated to do which was helped improve society, to some degree, what I would have taught when I went to college, originally, DPA was being set up, there were a lot of environmental issues in Ireland at the time, there were more controversies about dumps and waste and pollution of rivers than almost anything else. And they were top of the political agenda. At the time, I was offered a senior position. I took it and I was one of the first people in the door. So over the next couple of years, it was a very exciting time. The EPA is independent of government. It has independent decision making powers. And you know, at the time, the whole licensing of major industry, the licensing, our float authority, landfills and other waste facilities, all of these issues were introduced in that mid 90s to 2000 period. And, you know, you can see the benefits of that today. In terms of overall society, because there is now very little controversy or argument around the performance are the regulation of major industries. And equally, the whole blight on the countryside of dumps and landfills was resolved within about a 10 year period. Now, one of the big, controversial projects at the time was the proposal to build an incinerator in paperbag, Dublin's waste was being dumped literally in the counties adjacent to doubler. And that caused a huge amount of pollution. One of the projects that was proposed fairly early on and licensed by the EPA was the Poolbeg incinerator. And as we know, that probably was the most controversial project in the country over about a 10 year period. And again, why was it controversial? It was controversial because people in the area of Sandy mountain rings end where it was going, did not want a facility in the location. Ironically, for a Green Party, all Green parties to Europe supporters, incineration and the use of energy of waste to generate energy but the Green Party in Ireland decided that it was against it. For several years, the Minister for the Environment was a Green Party representative of so various reasons, but it was a big project. It was hugely needed. It's been hugely successful, was the worry that it will be billowing the smoke, or smoke is not the issue. It's actually the content of what will be released, it will be the substances that will be contained in it. Invisible gases that you can see. Yes. So I mean, why put something into the ground that's going to pollute it for the next 500 years, where you can burn it generated energy and control of the content are substances in the emissions.

Dusty Rhodes  19:34 

Is that possible? Is that was that the solution? That when

Gerry Carty  19:37 

it has been the solution, how much controversy has there been over its operations since it went into place five years ago, six years ago? I haven't heard very much and I don't see any coverage over the mean. There have been a couple of issues around whether it's it had opened it might have had short term issues at particular times, but in general as a facility For the national capital, he was absolutely essential that it be developed. It's operated by a private sector operator, some would see that as good, some would not see that as good. I don't think that's the relevant point. The relevant point is a facility of that nature was clearly needed. It ultimately got developed. But it took 20 years from concept through to actual delivery, but hugely opposed and vehemently opposed over a long period of time. I don't see anything wrong with people putting up their point of view, and and are doing, but there's a point at which you have to reconcile facts and supposition and rumor. We're always in that game, we we, we imply quite a lot of communications people and they're experts in the area and at it is ultimately a case of people understanding, I think a lack of understanding is at the root of a lot of opposition. And you know, if the if the message or the factual information is distorted, and there is a tendency in modern social media, with the channels available to absolutely distort the information. And we see that currently where you know, factual information, good quality information is pushed out there. It's deliberately misinterpreted deliberately misquoted, it is deliberately circulated. Without control that generates fear. It generates opposition is agitates people and irritates people. So it doesn't serve any positive purpose other than a negative purpose of of heightening people's stress tension. And that energy does not come from those in responsible positions. It comes from from people who do not want something in their vicinity are even within Ireland, even people overseas said

Dusty Rhodes  21:57 

so yeah, but the one the one key words that you said that does help everybody is information, absolutely making it available now from a negative side of things to the positive side of things. rps was named on the same topic, RPS was named as one of the first ever carbon champions by the Institution of Civil Engineers, which which one of the projects was involved in that

Gerry Carty  22:18 

that's a an overseas project, it's it's called the it's Glasgow industrial investment area, it's adjacent to Glasgow airport. It's a site that was contaminated and had to be remediated and the Scottish Government designations for development of new industry, we were employed by the contractor who was appointed to design the several and other infrastructure for the site. And one of the issues that arose on the site was there was a an old idle cooled high voltage transmission cable, or running through the site and this cable required cooling, which is why the heavy oil was there, the power transmission cable is buried underground need to be cooled. So in removing contamination and developing the site, this existing cable was top priority to protect it because it's served with 50 electricity needs of Glasgow, we came up with a very unique solution, which was rather than concrete, the complete cable was to build what I call crib work using, of course, would be described as fast sticks, but plastic box type components using high quality engineering methods in to construct a dash around the cables and avoid using of concrete and the benefit of that was the concrete if used would have had a huge carbon footprint, whereas the alternative had almost a zero carbon footprint. So one of our staff, senior geotechnical engineer of Kane McGinnis won the award for ice champion. And we've placed a huge emphasis on projects where we can reduce carbon over the last seven or eight years, we have developed our own sustainability team, an approach to net carbon zero, where we we incorporate it at every stage of our design process. We've trained every staff member within the company, in terms of it. And just recently, engineers Ireland awarded that particular project, the Annual Award for Excellence for digital innovation also. So net carbon zero is huge way to tackle carbon emissions, particularly in our area, we're in infrastructure, can we reduce the carbon content that is embodied in the materials can we reduce the carbon content during use of the facility afterwards? Um, that might be developing alternative heating compared to Heil burning or fossil fuel use, etc. So we place a significant emphasis on that at all stages of our project development now. It's great to see it recognized. And it was great to see Keane recognized for Farley outstanding work in the area. And we continue to do that. So when we are doing projects, now, we look right through the project cycle from concept to completion, what materials are available? So for example, it's can we use timber, which is locally grown? Are stainable and replaceable versus using steel? Can we use alternatives to concrete? In terms of paving are there new or alternative substances available to replace traditional asphalt are are similar materials. So it's been a huge emphasis for the last couple of years. And we continue, we intend to continue down that route. So certainly, clients are looking for it, and is now become a demand nationally, under the climate change action plan where project savings must be illustrated.

Dusty Rhodes  26:11 

We're in a changing world at the moment. And as you say, that project was in Glasgow, you're doing quite a bit of overseas work and at quite a distance as well. If that is a challenge, working on something that is 1000s of miles away, how do you how do you handle it?

Gerry Carty  26:25 

Hopefully we do it well.

Dusty Rhodes  26:28 

That's, that's a given Jerry, that's a given.

Gerry Carty  26:31 

What's really facilitated is ironic to say, but COVID COVID was the generator of being able to work remotely, anywhere in the world. So when COVID Hische, in March 2020, within a couple of weeks, we had all of our staff working from home, most staff had laptops, we had a proportion working from home part time or full time. But certainly we had to go from everybody or have close to everybody in the office to nobody in the office. And business impacts potentially could have been huge. Our IT people did a fantastic job, we got up and running. I then we were working with our colleagues in places like Australia, and the US at the time doing some infrastructure. We were developing our digital and digitalization capacity in parallel for quite a number of years. And we we had a national leader Mark Arsenal in our business in Galway. And over time, he and his team began to develop technical solutions to how do you deal with issues so for example, on on planning, typically, people look at two dimensional drawings, and they see something, but they may not understand the height or the impact of it, or how it might look from their house or what it might look like in 510 years. So suddenly, with 3d digital design, our team could actually illustrate and do a virtual show. So it would be basically, we can give you a tour of something that we have as concept as a concept, we can show you what it would look like, what it would be washable droplight from your window are flush impact it will have you know, as the landscape matures, etc. I don't know if you've heard the term digital twin, but the concept of a digital twin became rooted very quickly. So a digital twin is basically a digital model where you can do live walkthroughs are run throughs as if the project actually existed, as if the building or the road. So one I'm thinking of is we did a project in Cork, the extension of the car to Ringaskiddy motorway, the M 28. And we did visualizations for that which showed what it would look like what a watch. So you could actually drive a vehicle down this yet to be constructed road. You could see where you could turn off, you could look out from your house and see what it looked like. Now, what it would look like when there was constructors when it would look like in 2030 years time. All of this capacity was developed in house with the assistance of big IT companies, external providers. And that enabled us then to let others in RFPs in the various countries around the world nor the capacity and then resulted in some very prestigious projects. So taking not just future projects, but taking existing projects and doing very detailed surveys then turning that into a model and illustrating it far, far people so I'll give you two examples. Sydney Opera House is one. So the Sydney Opera House Plaza we might The last for the Australians. So how do you walk around it currently? How could you enhance it? What could you do to developers? If you implemented your proposed solutions? What would it look like etc. So that was one. A second project that I was going to mention was Houston, which is a city of about 8 million in the US. We've been involved in a number of infrastructure projects there. And because of our digital capacity, we arrived has to model what I would call the multimodal inter motor connections between rail Metro roads, cycleways pedestrian ways, etc. And that modeling has been continuing over a lengthy period of about three, four years at this stage. But it's interesting that we are we have the technology and the technical capability and the people who can deliver at that type of strategic overview. I mean, if you're trying to tell somebody class, a new motorway through the middle of a city at an elevation of about 5060 meters, overground and a new railway line crossing Andhra, it looks like it's not that easy to understand the concepts when you see them on on a paper drawing, you actually get a real appreciation of them. And the level of detail that you can do in these models is fascinating. I mean, we can take a project now and model every stage of the project from airily commencement through to completion of construction, if the information is available, so depending on the level of information available, so on construction projects, nowadays, sometimes there is demand to understand how the process works, and how it can be made more efficient, and the whole industry needs to modernize and become more efficient. And one way of doing that is to understand how you get from something on a drawing, to actually construction to actual use. And if you do the digital model, you can save potentially a significant amount of material, and you can get a better in product. And you can also use what are called modern methods of construction, prefabricated off site, etc in a controlled environment, which means you have less construction impacts, which also means you can construct a project quicker and into a better quantity.

Dusty Rhodes  32:28 

So digital is no doubt making a massive difference to the way everything is planned and be able to coordinate and giving information to people who would have concerns about it. And I believe you're able to meld real life footage with the intended project that you're planning and to do that all in 3d these days as well, which is just mind blowing. 2035 seems to be a big year, I hear it over and over again 2035 This that the other, it's a little over 10 years away, it's going to be a watershed year for everybody. For example, in 2035 combustion engines will stop being sold in the EU. That's it all electric from there on, what issues do you consider will be important over the next 10 years leading up to 2035?

Gerry Carty  33:11 

Well, any an area that we are hugely involved in now is the whole area of renewables and finding alternatives made. If you look at climate change, largely driven by emissions, how do you reduce emissions, one of the clear ways is reduced the use of fossil fuels and dependency on them. So developing renewables is absolutely key to that. Now, if you take that, in Ireland's context, very significant onshore wind development in the last 20 years, at one point in November 60% of our electricity, on particular days came from renewables, which is fantastic. But there are significant developments now proposed offshore. So we're quite involved in developing the concepts, preparing the planning applications doing the environmental assessments and studies necessary to get permission for those. So finding and implementing, firstly, renewable energy solutions is absolute key. And Ireland as one of the world's leading economies and with a very high standard of living needs to show examples of how it can be done to others. within the country. I think one of the biggest challenges is to be energy efficient. And that, for example, in terms of vehicles, when you say is zero, fossil fuel use and vehicles in 2035 It's a fantastic ambition. But we are now 2023 there is little or no infrastructure that would serve us electric vehicles around the country by had the experience of traveling with a friend of mine recently on about a 220 kilometer journey and he spent about four hours searching for a charge main point that was vacant so he could charge his character to do the return journey that just isn't acceptable if we are going to go down the route of having alternatives. So much like broadband needs to be rolled out nationally, motorways needs to be rolled out nationally, the national infrastructure for electric vehicles needs to be rolled out. It's fear of gap in the infrastructure of the country at the moment. If by 2030, we have made significant progress, we might get somewhere towards having alternative fuels or alternative energy sources and use and transport within another 1520 years. But right now, there is no prospect of achieving no carbon vehicles by by 2035. They simply infrastructure simply hasn't been planned, it's not been implemented. And the national plan just isn't there for it.

Dusty Rhodes  35:56 

I think the plan is that they're going to stop selling the cars in 2035. And then over the next 10 to 15 years after that, they would eventually just fade out. And I suppose that gives them the impetus then to put the infrastructure into play that looks decent. I'm not an engineer, I don't know what the grand plan is.

Gerry Carty  36:13 

Every contribution as welcome. A second one would be our building stock. refurbishing is absolutely essential. It's moving in the right direction, it needs to move an awful lot faster. But when people talk about things like this and Ireland's we need to realize that we are a wealthy country relative to other countries, we have a high already have a high standard of living. And if we can't afford to go down this route Guca. So you know it the positive part is that Irish people have a fantastic can do attitude, sadness, the the government support, and the national approach is there to support the contractors necessary will be there. We have nearly full employment. But we have a lot of people coming into the country looking for work and love people wanting to return. And once they see continuity of employment, they will work in these areas.

Dusty Rhodes  37:06 

Gerry, you've had an amazing career. And you've seen so many brilliant things solve so many developments over the years. And a lot of what you're talking about is just indicating that these amazing things. And these amazing developments are just going to continue for the next 2030 4050 years. Certainly, you also mentioned that there is a shortage of new people coming into the business. So how do you kind of pitch engineering as an opportunity for people as a job,

Gerry Carty  37:34 

when you look at it as not just I mean, the traditional engineer, had a calculator, sat down with a slide rule and worked out fakers handed them to someone else, and they got on with doing it. The modern engineer is somebody who sits at a laptop, our seminar, as much of their skill is working with others as it is new America, there is a huge variety of opportunities in I wouldn't say just engineering in infrastructure, generally in construction industry. And part of the attraction is that almost every time we do a project, it's a new project. There's something different. We don't produce widgets, we learn from my experience, we learn, hopefully, positive lessons, there are lots of lessons that we learn. In fact, it is fair to say that as an engineer, and I would say this in my own career, I've learned a lot more from my failures than I have from my successes. And everybody has has it as failures at some point and learning to cope with and learn from them. So one of the things we do internally is we have a very detailed lessons learned database. And if you go on dash internally, and you're a member of staff, you will see some of the things we have done that didn't work that well, which we are which typically a lesson learned is here's how we did something, here's what we did that went wrong. How did we correct us what we do next. So if you like the challenging environment, then there are endless opportunities in engineering, they are now more technology driven than ever. I mean, when I started an engineering or design office was an office with a few we didn't even have calculators I think largely at the time. There certainly were no PCs. Nowadays, it is driven by an entirely different skill set. So the numerator says search is still important. But it's actually the ability to communicate, interact, understand, work with other people work in work with integrated teams work and build teams. And that brings very interesting challenges and the challenges you know, in our business. The challenges are multifaceted in that. You could be working today on a roads project, and two years time you might have transferred to a team constructing a project and on site, you need your knowledge, but you need a different skill set. You need to know about contracts you need to know about. So it's the variety of work, I think is one part of it. It's the mix of challenge. And, you know, everybody has skills. If you can find the niche where your skills are useful, and you enjoy it, I think that's the key. And what we want is people working with us who enjoy what they do, who enjoy their day to day activity. We don't want people in the office, late in the evening, are working at home late in the evening. We want them to do their day's work, enjoy it, feel fulfilled, feel motivated to do a good job. We had a saying in the office here a number of years ago, which has served us very well, which is if you work here, leave your ego outside the door. If you

Dusty Rhodes  40:51 

want to work here, leave your ego at the door. I totally love that phrase that can be employed in so many ways. Gerry Carty, Senior Consultant of RPS group, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Gerry Carty  41:01 

Thank you just stay here and join us.

Dusty Rhodes  41:03 

If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast today. You'll find notes and the link details in the show notes or description area of our podcast on your podcast player right now. And of course you'll find more information and advanced episodes on our website at engineers ireland.ai. Our podcast today was produced by just pod.io for engineers, Ireland and if you'd like more episodes, do click the Follow button on the podcast player so you get access to our past and future shows automatically. Once next time for myself Dusty Rhodes like fillister

AMPLIFIED: Gerry Carty, Senior Consultant, RPS Group

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