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The water sector needs the help of engineers to develop plans and innovative solutions for the maintenance of one of our most essential commodities.

Today we hear of all the challenges facing the sector, from inefficient leaky infrastructure to an urgent focus on sustainability thanks to the rapidly changing climate.

Our guest has been a leader in this area for 25 years since founding his company in Loughrea, and has had success not just here in Ireland but across Europe and to the USA. He is Group Managing Director of Glanua, Karl Zimmerer.

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

  • Working with water as a valuable resource and commodity
  • The history of Glanua and the group MD’s career path
  • Innovation to meet customer needs and regulatory standards
  • Balancing supply, sanitation and sustainability in improving treatment plants
  • Where to improve water knowledge as an interested engineer

 

GUEST DETAILS
Karl Zimmerer is Group Managing Director of Glanua. Karl has over 25 years experience in the design, construction and operation and maintenance of water and wastewater infrastructure throughout Ireland, with over 15 years in a Senior Management position. Karl’s professional qualifications include an Honours Degree in Structural Engineering and a Master Degree in Project Management.

Karl is a founding member of Glanagua LTD and has successfully developed the business into one of the leading companies in the water sector in Ireland, providing a full range of services throughout the industry.

https://ie.linkedin.com/in/karl-zimmerer-4b73a319

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/  

 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

 

QUOTES

It is a very expensive resource that is absolutely essential to life. - Karl Zimmerer

 

It is something that requires a significant level of investment to ensure that that is provided at a certain standard and a lot of governments aren't allocating enough for that. - Karl Zimmerer

 

Innovation is something that we feel very, very passionate about, because innovation can be how you dig the hole, how you construct the tank, it can be about the technology, the pump system, the mortar that drives the pump, water efficiency, setpoint and understanding what the needs are for your customers. - Karl Zimmerer

 

There's absolutely no stupid questions. Don't come to me with questions, come to me with solutions, and just ask me to do I think the solutions are right - Karl Zimmerer

 

KEYWORDS

#water #Ireland #engineering #challenge #wastewater #treatmentplant #sustainability

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, with such an abundance of water literally all around us. Why is the water sector still facing huge engineering problems?

Karl Zimmerer  00:09

You know, it is something that requires a significant level of investment to ensure that that is provided at a certain standards and a lot of governments aren't allocating enough for that.

Dusty Rhodes  00:22

Hi there, my name is Dusty Rhodes. Welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal Podcast. Today we're looking at the key water sector of engineering, which faces all kinds of challenges from inefficient leaky infrastructure to an urgent focus on sustainability, thanks to the rapidly changing climate around us. Our guest has been a leader in this area for 25 years since founding his company in Loughrea, Galway, which has been a huge success not only just here in Ireland, but across Europe and the USA as well. It's a pleasure to welcome and hopefully learn from the group MD of Glenua, Karl Zimmerer, how're you doing, Karl?

Karl Zimmerer  00:56

Great to see. Thanks very much for having me.

Dusty Rhodes  01:01

So listen, tell me I'm sure you've heard of Michael Burry, the man who famously predicted the 2008 crash. He said, after that, he said, right, you know, what I'm going to invest in next is water. He said water will become the most valuable resource on the planet. Would you agree?

Karl Zimmerer  01:17

Absolutely. I think the changing regulations around the standards of particularly drinking water that we have to provide to the populations and society in general, is an ever changing challenge for us. I think the discharges of wastewater to the environment, whether it's to the sea to the receiving rivers and lakes, is an ongoing challenge and continually evolving. So we're lucky we have an abundance of both here in Ireland, but there are certainly other parts of the world where water recycling water reuse are absolutely going to be essential to meet the needs of future society and future generations.

Dusty Rhodes  02:00

Do you think water will ever become a commodity like gold is

Karl Zimmerer  02:06

it is a very expensive commodity, it is a very expensive resource that is absolutely essential to life. And we've had huge debates in Ireland, about that over the last 10 years to 20 years. It takes a lot of investment to maintain an assets that can adequately abstract water from whatever source, treat it to the correct standards, manage the networks, distribution to people's taps, collect their wastewater, convey that wastewater treatment plants, and safely discharged that to the environment where there is no adverse effects. That is a pretty significant cost of providing that essential, critical resource for life. But you know, a lot of other countries value that an awful lot more. We found it in Ireland directly out of central central Exchequer funds, the water utility model is there are loads of versions of it throughout the world. The UK is not very best placed to use as a reference at the moment. But certainly, you know, it is something that requires a significant level of investments to ensure that that is provided at a certain standard. And a lot of governments aren't allocating no farther than

Dusty Rhodes  03:26

pan. It's not exactly like it's something that we can live without this new but you've been working in this area for a long time and with the new as well. Tell me a little bit of that the quick history of the company.

Karl Zimmerer  03:36

Yeah, it's my work career. When I when I qualified in the mid 90s. Back in that time, there was another huge amount of work around I worked for six months for free. My first project was setting out the bottom half of the end 50 for land acquisition and routing and then progressed into civil engineering. My background is structural engineering. How did I get involved in water services? I built a lot of the structures and infrastructure around that in the 90s and noughties. In the early noughties. A lot of the water services projects that were procured were procured based on the specialist disciplines. So the civil engineering contractor was appointed first. The process and mica mechanical electrical instrumentation control contractor or consultant was was a separate appointment to go and deliver whether a water wastewater treatment plant or pipeline project in the late 90s and early noughties, the concept of design, build and operate and maintain came into Ireland driven very much by the significant infrastructure and asset deficit we had. The government realized that they had to bring in contractors who had the design, build and operate and maintain experience because we were bringing in huge new technologies and new systems and processes that were required across the country. So That model of design, build, operate and maintain was introduced. And there was very few contractors, engineering consultants and contractors who had the ability to be able to do the whole range of services around delivering of that design build. So, I was initially involved in an organization that targeted specifically the design, build, operate and maintain market to provide a one stop shop contracting entity, which are the engineering ability to take raw water abstraction through to treatment, storage, distribution, network management. And similarly, the wastewater collecting all the sewage conveying it to wastewater treatment plants, and then safely treating it and discharging it out. So it was driven very much by a need in the industry. And subsequently, when a creator Glen agua in 2007, it was to focus in on the engineering solutions around that whole water cycle. So from the roller abstraction, all the way out to the effluent. And there was a very big need for it at the time. And so we've gone from strength to strength, it's been rebranded in the last couple of years to glenella focused on that whole industrial and municipal water sector.

Dusty Rhodes  06:17

When you look back on everything that you've achieved to date, and you've plenty more to go, which particular projects that you were involved in, kind of stand out in your mind.

Karl Zimmerer  06:29

I look back over my career, and there's been significant project milestones that ultimately led to it, whether it be the rural water sector and the DB or bundles, which those water treatment plants dosti had significant challenges in the country and for Ireland inky as well, where there was a huge range of raw water sources that require process engineering, to be adapted to cater for those specific requirements. The rural water sector is a phenomenal part of the country where these this groups gain sector provide huge portions of the country we treated water historically, but subsequently as as we progressed into Klonoa, since 2007, again, is is identifying some of those range of services that can really meet the needs of society. And we've undertaken quite a lot of of bundled regional water treatment plants or number of water treatments within one contract for whole counties where we would operate the acids and the challenges around that and dealing with with the local authority, but from the process engineering, the hydraulic and mechanical, electrical instrumentation, control and automation, that experience which in Ireland, we've a unique set of challenges. We've a lot of groundwater with our surface water. We've karst limestone regions, which on the west coast of Ireland, where a lot of that surface water infiltrates into pristine groundwater, which makes the water very difficult to treat, because it varies quite substantially. Okay, that led to as the business grew, we expanded into the UK, but we had a very unique project that all of their competency said led us to a position where we had a had a requirement to upgrade to very large Watership plans in the northwest of London, where they had pristine backhoe for sources that had very little treatment requirement. But a tunnel boring machine to construct the high speed rail line from London to Birmingham was going to tunnel right through the center of this aquifer and create quite high risk to the safety of the trees of the RO water source. But based on our experience of the west of Ireland, Charis limestone and understanding the the range of impacts that can happen to groundwater sources arising out of a pollutants, which would be the bentonite slurry associated with tunnel boring machines, but also also surface water infiltration allowed our engineering team come up with the absolute fit for purpose solution to provide an upgrade to those treatment plans to ensure that there will save water provided for the customers that water company and what was the solution? It was a mixture of membrane technology which is very advanced treatment to provide a barrier to quite elevated levels of particularly turbidity and other solids that that could arise out of it. It was a no no on this is not something that has been frequently experience. So having a pristine water of course with a big construction activity going through it. So there was a huge amount of hydrogeological and geotechnical evaluation to understand what those impacts would be to engineer the exact solution. It had to be delivered in an extremely tight timescale because the tunnel boring machine was coming at a particular date. So in engineering that solution, which was very much based in offsite, assembling solutions, designed for manufacture or assembly, that whole digital construction piece was the only way to operate these plants within the timescale and extremely tight footprints. So that was the probably headline project that a lot of our experience over the years don't see lead. Having that perfect capacity.

Dusty Rhodes  10:21

You strike me as a man who relishes a challenge, and then coming up with a unique solution for it. And I also know as well, from looking at your website, that you have an innovation center in Navin, what exactly is it that you innovate there,

Karl Zimmerer  10:36

there's a understanding the needs of your customers, and to ensure that you stay ahead of the regulatory drivers that are requiring an awful lot of the water cheap metal grids can involve having cutting edge technology solutions that will deal with the sort of pee fast is a very topical thing that you hear from the states that's now coming into the Ireland in the UK, which is the sometimes characterize these forever chemicals. So understanding the range of treatment capabilities to be able to deal with those type of pollutants and in in your treatment plants is something that we're looking at quite actively, but innovation can be the cutting edge technologies that we're looking at, but also simply for doing things more efficiently. And, you know, the membrane technology I refer to when that and that project is often more regularly used in wastewater treatment, but can equally be applied in drinking water treatment, which was the first time that it had been done in that type of scenario. So innovation is something that we feel very, very passionate about, because innovation can be how you dig the hole, how you construct the tank, it can be both the technology, the pump system, the motor that drives the pump, water efficiency, setpoint and understanding what the needs are for your customers. One thing that's quite topical to see at the moment around the whole sustainability side is is we have prepared, we've upgraded a wastewater treatment plant for a small town and southwest of the country. And we have a full compliant, very, very efficient wastewater treatment plant. And we have presented its exact replica of that same Wastewater Treatment Plant achieving the net zero outcomes. Now, the challenge for us as an engineering solutions provider, but also our client is that plant will cost x and it will deliver it that net zero carbon solution will cost x multiply by three. So we have this constant challenge around that innovation piece as well as understanding where we're going as an industry. Do we want the net zero carbon today? Because if we do it's going to cost an awful awful lot more than what the current regulatory drivers require for that particular acid breakdown. So

Dusty Rhodes  13:02

how do you strike that balance then between call Stan and thinking of the future and making that investment now,

Karl Zimmerer  13:09

we've we've engaged quite a lot with the water utilities in the water companies in the UK, again, that's that's very topical at the moment are on their their funding challenges and half wash a green at certain rates, they can charge the customers and whether that allows them formed adequately their investment is, is offset against a what the regulator wants them to achieve, but be they're all committed to achieving net zero goals as is shared in Ireland and doing some phenomenal pieces of engineering. But that costs a huge amount to do all of the water companies inish Garin is probably doing probably some of the best work of what we're experiencing right now are need to invest to get their assets to a particular standard. And that's their core investment deliverable at this moment in time to achieve safe drinking water, good wastewater treatment to ensure that there's no pollutants and develop those assets to be to cater for economic growth and housing, which is very topical in the country here. offset against Well, we would like to have zero energy output over the Tortex evaluation over 10 to 1520 years, is a real difficult balancing act. And it's finding that range of technologies and it may come out to the shopping list where some of the customers and clients will say we we'd like some of that, but we can't afford to do that right now. So it's identifying the right solutions and technologies for the right location. Whether it's a very, very large wastewater treatment plant for 3 million population equivalent in London, or it's a small 500 P village in southwest of Cary. It's it's a very difficult, challenging balancing act for those customers and the regulatory regulators. You mentioned

Dusty Rhodes  15:01

that we're doing quite well in Ireland in relation to water. What Why do you think we are managing so well here?

Karl Zimmerer  15:08

What haven't been involved with here since the 90s. And having upgraded water treatment plants, particularly on in water treatments that were on boil water notices for a long number of years, you know, there was huge negative publicity, you know, particularly at the creation of Arab water knowledge carrying around some of those legacy issues. You don't hear that much anymore. The work that they've done in removing a lot of those risks has been phenomenal. They've done national disinfection programs to ensure that all of the water producing assets have sufficient disinfection to ensure that the water is safe to drink as it goes out into distribution. There's always going to be challenges, there's always going to be unique circumstances around ageing assets that require interventions to ensure that the water is kept safe and clean. But when you look at where they started from, which was suffering from 20 to 30 to 40 years of underinvestment, that money came from the central essential Exchequer funding. So there was housing that was held, there was schools, were all competing for that central pot of money and coming off to an election dusty, nobody caught a ribbon or a mantle. It was a very good phrase I heard recently. So in the context of of what, what they have achieved and what they've done, have there leaks Absolutely. But they've reduced leaks substantially within areas. And they're dealing with Victoria, your pipelines, which is the exact same as they've done and spent billions in London and Birmingham and Manchester, replacing and we're still in catch up mode, but they've done some really good work, which is often missed, because it's the bad news stories we report on quite a lot more than than an awful lot. The good news stories.

Dusty Rhodes  16:56

Well, it's good to hear somebody speaking positively about it. Where do you think we are at balancing a supply of water along with sanitation, and then of course, keeping sustainability in mind? Well, we're

Karl Zimmerer  17:07

currently working on two of the largest working on upgrades on two of the largest water treatment plants in the Dublin region. On behalf of ich Garin and really doing some really great upgrade works. When you are at the coalface of working on a day to day appears basis with the people who manage the water supply into Dublin, you are in awe of the work they do. It is in such a fine balance of the waters of available water supply from predominantly the Liffey into Dublin compared to the demand that goes out. And all you need is one, one or two shock events, which could be a drought where everybody leaves their garden hoses on and the demand goes through the roof. So balancing, finding, at a macro level, the right solutions, like bringing water from Shannon, it's they have no Ireland and have no choice, we have absolutely no choice we will run out of water, as growth continues in the Dublin region. If they do not continue to invest. Yes, they can continue investing and avoiding leaks. But that is absolutely essential. So in terms of that supply and demand issue, particularly within the Dublin region, it's absolutely essential, it's on a knife edge. And there's some phenomenal work going on to ensure that it's continued. But we will see more holes, pipe bands and things like that into the future, which is commonplace in Paris of London and the UK. And if

Dusty Rhodes  18:33

things are tight, then, you know, kind of integrating sustainability principles must be hugely important to your projects. How do you do that? Well,

Karl Zimmerer  18:42

it's ensuring that we have, you know, one of the projects that we're doing quite a lot now, both in the UK and a number of projects in Ireland is just capturing things like the carbon footprint of the specific assets, whether it's a product or material or anything like that. And it's mapping out is that the most efficient overall carbon footprint solution, but the headline sustainability things is making existing assets last longer and deliver more efficiently. So a challenge for the industry and the sector here and particularly around the water treatment plant and Asset Delivery portfolios is to understand we'd like we'd all like shiny new yes infrastructure, whether it is ensuring that the existing assets there can be upgraded such that they provide sufficient capacity and that that is your biggest bang for your buck in terms of your overall sustainability approach is that whole reuse within the wastewater side obviously the bio resource sector is absolutely massive and and using that there are some other new technologies around hydrogen generation and using the effluent from wastewater treatment plants. So there's a lot of cutting edge work going on. Then with various organizations, though to it to look at that. So it's, it can come down to the smallest pump on the infrastructure to the biggest overall asset. And we've just commissioned a very large watershed event for a significant town or city in in Ireland now, and it is a very, very good project and reference project. To demonstrate where we've upgraded the existing app, we built new streams to increase the overall capacity and performance of that plant, while upgrading the existing infrastructure to ensure that the overall completed project can achieve the necessary outcomes as well as increased capacity and growth. So the whole sustainability and ensuring that our sustainability strategy is aligned with what our customers need is absolutely essential. But it encompasses absolutely everything, the whole life cycle cycle of a project.

Dusty Rhodes  20:57

Can I just ask on behalf of engineers who are listening at the moment? I mean, you You are Mr. Water? Because for the sake of argument, all right, you're right there, you're in it this this is your thing, all right, for engineers who kind of outside of that a little bit, but where water is going to be part of what they need to be thinking about? How should they be changing their thinking, when it comes to water as part of a construction or an infrastructure project?

Karl Zimmerer  21:23

Well, there's two elements to the question there is engineers, if nothing else, demonstrate to prospective employers that they have the ability to learn. So certainly, when you come out of college or university, as I was, as a structural engineer, I know leading a water company, so there's not a direct link, is you need to be very, very flexible in understanding the range of disciplines. So if we take any particular project, within the project lifecycle, you've process engineering, if science scientists use mechanical engineers, electrical instrument to engineers, if ice engineers, if civil engineers have structural engineers, we've engineers, we don't care what your discipline is, but you must be able to understand the overall thing. No, obviously, there's certain specialties in that and specializes in that. But in terms of ensuring how it's embedded within that infrastructure and engineering, across towns and cities and infrastructure projects, it's ensuring that we can use the water and collect the water as efficiently as possible, obviously goes, those are all things that should be no leaks, and things like that. But it just a whole reuse side of things. We do a lot of work for an industrial clients and the farmer with a huge track record and the meat and dairy sector, which are absolute colossal industries in Ireland. And a lot of those companies are now putting in for water reuse solutions in place because the water demand is absolutely colossal, we've we looked at the biggest water users are some of the biggest water users in the UK, of which strangely enough, as you sit down and look at these things, the Ottoman automobile sector in terms of washing vehicles and factories, and that whole industry is absolutely colossal. So they're desperately looking at means of of treating their effluence. But reusing it within the main process for engineering their their cars and cleaning the cars or whatever else that they use it specifically for, but it applies to every sector and every every industry.

Dusty Rhodes  23:30

So if you have that all of a sudden, you know, water is a big part of a project that you have to handle and you need to learn more. Where do you go and learn these things? What's What's your own thing? When you when you're given a challenge? You go and you know, I'm not the world expert. Now, obviously, you don't tell people you're not the world experts? The answer is always yes. And then you go off and you go, Oh, crikey. What do you do to go and make these things happen?

Karl Zimmerer  23:56

But I think it's, you know, whether it's a company or an individual, it's learning, it's it's basically understanding where the industry is going, where where the sector is going, understanding what the, you know, one of the things I mentioned earlier on is P FOSS forever chemicals, you know, so that's very cutting edge there. Now every regulator in the US, it's not yet regulated in the UK and Ireland. It's understanding. So the process engineering solutions around that are not proven yet. So it's very cutting edge technologies. So we collectively as an organization, as a collective individuals have to understand, examine, innovate around what type of engineering solutions that are around that. So it's it's going back to college in certain circumstances. And I don't mean that exactly what it is just opening up the most new technological papers understanding what it means and learning from it.

Dusty Rhodes  24:56

That's exactly what I was trying to find out. Where do you You learn from so it's a it is the latest in technological papers and industry publications, I'm sure you must do a bit of Googling and see what they're doing around the world to talk to colleagues and all those different sorts. It's

Karl Zimmerer  25:11

we we within the organization, here, we have a very active Lunch and Learn process with all our, our graduate program, we believe is probably one of the most robust in the industry in the sector. And as part of that, you know, we will have every very, very regularly some of these companies or regulators are our experts, some of which are in house and are on advisory boards for British water and advising on the water companies in the UK around emerging pollutants and emerging pharmaceuticals in some of these wastewaters. So we do that through lunch and learns we. And obviously there's there's project experience as well as part of the overall graduate program.

Dusty Rhodes  25:52

Can I wrap up by asking you about that, because you're very proactive in encouraging people to move up the ladder in the career and that Lunch and Learn is just one of the things that you do on the graduate program that you have, generally within the company and the various projects that you have around the world when you're looking for people. And when you're looking for people who want to move up the ladder? What impresses you, and then you go, he's gone up the ladder?

Karl Zimmerer  26:16

Yeah, well, there's absolutely no stupid questions, does the answer to we make it very, very clear to our graduates as we expand one of the ethos, and I probably learned from people who I worked with in the 90s and noughties, and it often comes back to don't come to me with questions, come to me with solutions, and check if those solutions don't come to your problems, come to me with solutions. And just asked me Do I think the solutions are right that those two things. Fundamentally, it gets that young engineer, whether graduate or advanced in years, it gets them fundamentally problem solving. So they have to come up with a solution, they have to come with an idea. The idea might be lunacy, and might be stupid. But that's the learning, it's better to come with an idea upfront, so that it embeds that problem solving nature, within within their, their career development, and they're taught. And second of all, it allows me an awful lot more time to be just advising them on what their solution is rather than having to solve the problem for them. But it's it's a very, very important trait. And those those young career minded people who who want to progress you will find do that far more often. And, you know, some of our absolute best developing people within the industry or, or within our business are people that might have the traditional disciplines or the top of the class results, it is that practical approach, whether it can be very design oriented, orientated, academic and or otherwise. But that practical minded problem solving, ability to be able to bring real and viable solutions to the challenges that we encounter every single day, across every day. And some of the challenges we're dealing with now, within our organization are you know, once in a lifetime engineering problems and in replacing a massive pump station, Victorian era Pump Station in London without damaging that building, which is a listed building. It's it's colossal challenges that we encountered every day, but it's that attitude of this is, this is what's in front of me, I need to go and deliver it because problems this is how I think is going to solve these problems. And two, three years into it, that engineer that this whatever qualification they have, they are phenomenally advanced and positive for our organization bad

Dusty Rhodes  28:48

So don't be shy, speak up and offer solutions that exactly what gets the attention and gets you up the ladder. And I have to say Carl, a lot of the projects that you are working on with Glenua sound absolutely fascinating. If you want to find out more about them, or about Karl or any of the topics that we spoke about today, you'll find notes and link details in the description area of this podcast, but for now, Karl Zimmerer, Group MD of Glenua, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. If you enjoyed our podcast today, do share with a friend in the business just tell them to search for Engineers Ireland in their podcast player. The podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland. For advanced episodes, more information on engineering across Ireland or career development opportunities there are libraries of information on the website at engineersireland.ie. Until next time from myself, Dusty Rhodes. Thank you so much for listening.

Water for the Future: Karl Zimmerer, Glanua

Water Infrastructure is a hugely important sector here in Ireland, and it has many challenges on the horizon, including everything from climate change to infrastructure demand.

Today, we're finding out more about the future of that water infrastructure and where engineers will play a crucial role in ensuring its success.

Our expert today is at the centre of the industry and has experience working on massive projects in Ireland, the UK and Asia. He is CEO of Uisce Éireann and a fellow of Engineers Ireland, Niall Gleeson.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Things we spoke about:

1:22 Working on infrastructure projects abroad

04:29 Moving from on the ground engineering to management

06:41 Water supply challenges in Ireland

09:49 Maintaining drinking water safety

11:30 Sourcing more water supplies for rural and urban areas

14:02 How wastewater is managed

15:18 Future-proofing in Uisce Éireann

18:05 Climate change considerations in water management

20:52 Engineering roles in the water sector

23:52 Driving innovation while managing the day to day

28:57 Uisce Éireann’s role in future infrastructure

30:56 What lessons helped Niall move up the ladder

Guest details

Niall Gleeson is Chief Executive Officer of Uisce Éireann, the national utility responsible for providing public water and wastewater services throughout Ireland. Niall leads the organisation in the delivery of safe, clean and environmentally compliant water services to households and businesses across Ireland. He has been instrumental in driving Uisce Éireann’s safety, sustainability and employee engagement strategies and in 2021 led the organisation in securing the provision of an historic €1.1 billion in capital investment funding, which is vital to developing Ireland’s critical water services infrastructure, protecting public health and supporting social and economic development.

Prior to joining Uisce Éireann, Niall was Managing Director for Veolia Ireland and Alstom Ireland and held a number of senior leadership roles with world-leading infrastructure companies including General Electric and Shanahan Engineering. He has significant experience in the finance, construction, commissioning and maintenance of transport and utility assets, and has led major infrastructure projects across Ireland, the UK and Asia. Raised in Dublin, he holds a degree in engineering from the Dublin Institute of Technology.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/niallgleeson/
https://www.water.ie/about/careers/

More information 

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/ 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

Quotes

The problem-solving is one of the big things, engineers are  in demand not just for engineering trades, but banking or all that kind of stuff. It’s the ability to look at a problem and work out a logical process to get a resolution, starting at the start and working your way methodically through problems is a real key, and it’s a trait that most engineers have. - Niall Gleeson

A lot of us are very solution focused, especially engineers, so we're trying to solve people's problems for them. Quite often, you just have to listen. They talk themselves through the problem and they almost solve it for you while they're sitting in front of you. So it's not always reacting. I think that's probably what I would teach my younger self, listen more. - Niall Gleeson

We have an awful lot of stuff that goes into toilets that shouldn't go into toilets like wet wipes.. They say they're biodegradable, but they're not. We pull about 60 tons of what we call rags out of the inlets of Ringsend every month. - Niall Gleeson

Over the next 25 years our plan is to improve drinking water, get a very reliable source, provide more where there's growth and make sure that the likes of Dublin can continue to grow, and other urban areas. All of the projections are that the population is going to keep growing.  - Niall Gleeson

We have to do our day to day job and we have to deliver water every day, so innovation can be tricky. But our sustainability program is driving a lot of innovation, we're looking at solar panels on the roofs of buildings and things like biodiversity. - Niall Gleeson

We're crying out for engineers at the moment. We have a huge recruitment programme going on. As part of our transformation to, the Uisce Eireann transformation program. One of the challenges we have is with our own teams and with the local authorities, there's a lot of gray hair. I have it myself, but there's a lot of people who are approaching retirement. So we need a new batch of people coming through. - Niall Gleeson

Keywords

#water #engineers #wastewater #drinkingwater #rivers #climatechange

Transcription

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, we're about to learn about supplying something as basic as water to a rapidly growing population.

Niall Gleeson  00:07

We're crying out for engineers at the moment. So we have a huge recruitment program going on. There's a lot of people who are approaching retirement. So we need a new batch of people coming through to learn from the existing people, but also take over, you know, the operations and the construction of those sites. So yeah, we need graduates we need young engineers who have what a few years experience and an even more senior engineer so across the board we're looking for, for engineers, there's a lot of hiring going on in our industry.

Dusty Rhodes  00:32

Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to AMPLIFIED, the Engineers Journal podcast. Water Infrastructure is a hugely important sector here in Ireland, and it has many challenges on the horizon, including everything from climate change to infrastructure demand. Today, we're finding out more about the future of that water infrastructure and where engineers will play a crucial role in ensuring its success. To tell us more is a man at the center of the industry. His engineering degree from DIT brought him huge experience on massive projects in Ireland, the UK and Asia. He's also held many senior leadership roles with world leading infrastructure companies. And we're proud to say that he is a fellow of Engineers Ireland. I'm delighted to welcome the CEO of Uisce Eireann, Niall Gleeson, hello Niall.

01:18

Hey, Dusty, Thanks for Thanks for having me on.

Dusty Rhodes  01:22

Listen, I want to chat about the problems that we're facing in Ireland with water and where Uisce Eireann sits in that mix. And of course, the role that engineers have in solving the problems we face. But first, tell us a little bit about your your own career, you've worked on some fairly, very substantial infrastructure projects abroad, what would you say are the highlights?

Niall Gleeson  01:41

Yeah, I started my the real start of my career was when I joined General Electric who, every year back in the sort of 80s and 90s, they hired about 15 to 20 Irish engineers, when we were cheap and plentiful, you know. And we traveled all over the world installing power plants, and equipment for General Electric, so a fantastic job in coming out of 80s. Ireland, it was, you know, huge opportunity and got to see Alaska, I got to see Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, China, so and Poland, so worked in all those countries. And it was a fascinating job. So I don't know, is there one particular one, I suppose one that I brings to mind is actually back in the UK, we had a major projects and the equipment failed. I mean, these were large 100 ton rotors spinning at 3000 rpm, and they started to lose bolts. And that whole program of you know, it was an innovation that's led the innovation innovation on the that equipment meant that they were under severe pressure and severe stress and the design didn't work. But the whole program around, you know, retrofitting those and fixing it was fascinating. We were at one stage flying rotors across the Atlantic on Antonov aircraft to get them repaired quick enough. So yeah, a good sense of scale, I suppose. As well, back in those days, it was no email, no mobile phones. So you became pretty resilient and became pretty good at adapting and dealing with ambiguity and you know, having to make decisions yourself in the middle of China when you couldn't get an answer. And you couldn't just download the solution off the internet or get pick something off email. So it made a lot more resilient and a lot more thinking for yourself, you know, give me

Dusty Rhodes  03:19

an example of that being in the middle of nowhere and needing something massive and having to have it here tomorrow.

Niall Gleeson  03:24

I do remember in I was on the call off the coast of Venezuela on a project and it was one of the early new technology. But we were still dialing up at 1200 baud rate. I don't know if I remember doing that. And you heard the little Binkley noises No like a stuff. So I downloaded a patch for the software, which took about eight hours to download on a phone line. And the phone bill was around $800 I think you know what I mean? So but we it's eight as a couple of weeks waiting for a CD to arrive from from the States with it. So one of the first patches downloaded, I would I would like to claim, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  03:58

I'm not gonna try to do you think they're your engineer training, uh, you know, kind of helped you with all of this.

Niall Gleeson  04:03

I think certainly the, you know, the problem solving is, you know, you really, that's one of the big things that engineers I mean, they're in demand, not just for engineering trades, but banking or lack of staff has the ability to look at a problem and work out a logical process to get a resolution. I think that's really important starting at the start and, and working your way methodically to problems is a real key for a trait that most engineers have, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  04:29

let me ask you about going from, you know, working as an engineer and then going into management because I have huge experience of that what at what point did that a lot of the projects you've spoken about was that as management or were you working as an engineer?

Niall Gleeson  04:41

Yeah, I suppose that large project I talked about with the with the rotor sailing, I was a commissioning engineer at that one. So not many people working for me and it was the tail end of the job and they wanted someone to take over the lead just to finish off the sort of final few months of the job. Some of the machines had been working fine up to that point. So I took over the lead expecting this, would you just be a nice easy job and run down the project and then disappear. And then the crisis hit. And I was finding myself in the hot seat with, you know, companies VPS ringing me up saying what's going on? And what's happening? And what are you guys doing over there and so stressful. The other thing I found is my peers are always entirely cooperative, you know, because I think it's one of the things when you step into management, and you've been working alongside people for a while, there's sometimes a little bit of pushback, you know, people don't really naturally and that was something that I hadn't dealt with before. But you know, working with try and get your peers to, to work with you and to say, Okay, I've moved into the more senior position. And now I'm at now I'm telling you what to do. You don't like it, but we got to keep with this is what we got to do. And that was something that it was a steep learning curve in that sense.

Dusty Rhodes  05:50

If you were to go back in time and talk to yourself at that younger age, what what advice would you give yourself now.

Niall Gleeson  05:57

And I think it's, you know, along the lines of, a lot of it is about listening to people. And a lot of you know, listening to the problem, quite often people come in to you, they have a problem. And really, they just want to talk through it, a lot of us are very solution focused, especially engineers, so we're trying to solve people's problems for them. Quite often, you just have to listen. And they talk themselves selves through the problem. And they they almost solve it for you while they're sitting in front of you, you know, so it's, it's not always reacting. I think that's probably what I what I would teach, teach my younger self and listen more, and, you know, let people talk things through.

Dusty Rhodes  06:30

It's like men are from Mars, and women are from Venus, except it's engineers are from Mars. Yeah. Whereas, like, if you have a problem, I'll tell you how to fix it.

Niall Gleeson  06:38

Exactly. straightaway.

Dusty Rhodes  06:41

So you fear listen more, and that helps you progress up the line. Okay, cool. Listen, let's talk about water in Ireland, because one of the things we hear about with water in Ireland is that we need to protect our water supply. Is it in danger?

Niall Gleeson  06:57

You look at it even took me another last few days, we've seen flooding and cork and that so there's an abundance of water in the country, but But it comes at different times, we the way we use us and the way we source it, and the way we protect those sources, that's not in a great place. I mean, we do we use a lot of surface water, a lot of river water, lake water in Ireland, for our for our drinking water supplies, and between how we treat, you know, runoff, how pesticides, land spreading, and also our own treatment plants for on the west side, we are contributing to those resources not been in great condition. If you look at the EPA River Basin report, you know, water quality has been deteriorating. So I mean, inish air, we're working very hard to improve those wastewater treatment plants. We also want to work with landowners and farmers in that to try and look at what's happening upstream, how do we treat those? How do we prevent those pesticides and nutrients, too much nutrient going into the into the sources, and it's a big collaboration space, it's not something, as I say to people, it's not something that is Garin can fix with concrete and pumps, you know, it's, we can do a certain amount, but we need the entire communities to buy into protecting those water sources. And I think water because we have so much of it, it's not respected in our in the way, if you go to drier countries, you know, water is really treated differently.

Dusty Rhodes  08:18

So it's a case of we have the quantity, but it's the quality that you're worried about, and lots of other things that are affecting water that would you say that we use water from the land, as you say, from from rivers, so we don't necessarily get a lot of our water from wells, is that what you mean?

Niall Gleeson  08:34

It would be quite mixed. I mean, we've got 700 water treatment plants around the country, everything from ballymore uses, which supplies most of Dublin to, you know, a small well, that will supply 500 people, you know, out in rural areas. So they're quite different to so some are wells, but the vast majority of our our water is from surface water. So we do need to treat or you know, to work closely on treating all that kind of stuff. The other thing is with climate change, we are seeing you know, you're seeing deluge us, but you're also seeing much drier weather as well. So it's how do we protect those sources? How do we kind of store storing water is difficult, we have reservoirs in Dublin that, you know, people say, you know, why don't you make those bigger, but we have, you know, the vast reservoirs in stillorgan, that they will give us about 24 hour storage for the for the city, you know, so building, you know, weeks of storage is very expensive and not really practical. That's why we're looking at if you take var tree or you take Bula fuca those were enormous valleys that were flooded back in, back in, you know, when you could get when you could do that kind of stuff. But you know, it's not really practical nowadays to look at flooding valleys, it's just ecologically not the sensible thing to do. You know. So that's a challenge as well for us is protecting the sources all year round, leaving aside

Dusty Rhodes  09:49

rivers that flow through cities because you know, they just looked dirty, but I'm thinking of rivers that we see in the in the countryside. Is it safe to drink water directly from those rivers

Niall Gleeson  10:00

It's rarely safe to drink water directly from from any rivers. I mean, that's why, you know, it is expensive water treatment, we we take the water out, we filter it, it does vary, not complicated, but it's a laborious filtration process, then we would also chlorinate, and quite often we add UV at the end to really kill off all the microbes, you know. So that's why, you know, people would say, Why do you, you know, why do we have shortages, but it is processing that water and making sure it's safe to drink is quite complicated. And an expensive we, you know, a lot of chemicals involved a lot of dosing, and a lot of energy in those UV systems.

Dusty Rhodes  10:35

I'm asking a lot of silly questions, because I know very little about water. But what's the difference between water then that you've processed, and it's coming out of a tap and water that I buy in a bottle in the shop?

Niall Gleeson  10:45

Yeah, now not much difference. Actually, I would, I would recommend nobody drink bottled water. I mean, really, the tap water all around the country we the EPA test is it's all we regularly tested ourselves, and it's very safe to drink. And if it isn't safe to drink, we'll put on boil water notices, and you'll see some of those coming and going in areas that to me that gives you the confidence or it should give the public the confidence that we know what's happening with the system. So if we're saying the water is safe to drink, and there's no restrictions on it, then I would say you should never go out buy bottled water. Some people vied for taste. But to be honest, I think, you know, if you really don't like some people can taste the chlorine, just by a little filter. And you can get that taken out, you know, in a home filter. But it's always very safe and good to drink. So why waste your money on bottled water?

Dusty Rhodes  11:30

Yeah, and it's more environmentally friendly, because you're not using a plastic bottles all the time. Like, you know, it's fantastic. So we have the water system within Ireland, we've got lots of it with needs to be cleaned. One of the other problems, I think that we have in Ireland is that we have a huge urban rural divide. So you're getting water, I would imagine often in rural areas, and then you've got to transport it to to the city areas. How does that work?

Niall Gleeson  11:54

Yeah, well, I suppose if you again, if you take you know, the supplies for Dublin come from Wicklow and Caldera, you know, and so they and they are piped into the into the city. If you take the artery example, you know, before of archery was built, I think around 1860 of archery plant was built. And I'd recommend anyone to go out and have a look, I think you can visit uncertain times a year, but it's really interesting. The Victorian engineering was superb. And you know, prior to that people have been drinking, taking the water from the canals and it was filthy and caused a lot of disease and all that kind of stuff. So this, this basically is a is a filtration system that just runs through sand beds. We've just recently we've upgraded that plant and we've put in a brand new plant, but that ran from the 1860s up to sometime last year when it was when we decommissioned it and provided a substantial amount about 20% of the water for Dublin. So we do rely on rural areas providing our water and one of the one of the big asks we're going to be asking in the near future is to take water from the Shannon and Shannon is to me a giant, slow moving body of water, it's a giant reservoir for the country. And we will be asking, asking the you know the people have on the channel to allow us take water from the pool of food, if not from cooler folk or from partying and bring it up to Dublin we'll be treating it and partying and then piping it up to Dublin that is the plan and we're working our way through our various permissions on that. And there is definitely the city the urban dwellers are stealing the water from from the rural areas and will drain the champion and all that kind of stuff like we will take maximum about one or 2% of the flow in the channel. And then if you've seen the Shannon flowing recently, it's a tremendous river there's plenty of capacity. But the other thing to that project will take water all the way up to the Midlands. So we will be distributing into a rural areas and making big difference. And what we'll also do allow us to do is divert water that's currently being pumped into the city and Dublin will be able to divert some of those and pump those further sides of Archer might start to pump further south into Wicklow and then some of the sources up in north Dublin will pump north so it's a project for the Midlands and the east and it's definitely one that we hope the rural areas rural community around the Shannon where we're taking the offtake will will buy into you know

Dusty Rhodes  14:02

a lot of what we're talking about is getting clean water to people what about wastewater what qualifies as wastewater and how's it managed?

Niall Gleeson  14:10

Yeah, well, you know, anything when you flush your toilets, that's that's obviously wastewater and going into the into the a very complex system of drains. And also then you've got industrial wastes. So a lot of processing plants, a lot of pharmaceutical plants all would feed into our, into our networks, and then they would feed into our treatment plants. So you take the rings in plant, which is the biggest plant we have in the country, it deals with about 40% of the waste water in the country, that's dealing with enormous mix of you know, chemicals of whatever you put down the toilet in your house, and that's a real challenge too, because we have an awful lot of stuff that goes into toilets that shouldn't go into toilets like wet wipes, and and all that kind of stuff. They say they're biodegradable, they're not we pull about 60 tons of what we call rags out of the inlets of things end every month. It's a huge amount of MIT waste, solid waste material that's been put into the system unnecessarily, because really, you just throw it in the bin, and it would make life an awful lot easier and certainly reduce our costs and the taxpayers are paying our costs. So in the end, you're you'd be winning, you know, let's talk

Dusty Rhodes  15:18

about air. And specifically now, you know, we know there was a baptism of fire with Irish water, what changed when it became went from Irish water to escape Aaron?

Niall Gleeson  15:27

So if Garin was part of the or via group, so it was ourselves and gas networks, Ireland were joined together under this or via banner. So now, the issue air and Banner is the new entity is the new national authority. It's completely standalone, national authority utility for the country for provision of water. So that's the important thing. The other thing is, we've signed the framework agreements so that the water services staff and the local authorities will come across, under under the ich Garin banner. So, right now, we have about 30 of the 31 local authorities, the water services teams are under the management of each Garin staff. So it's like a merger of the old Irish water and the Local Authority staff coming together up together under a new banner, the SPR and banner, which is the national utility, but but we will have all these local operators and local people who have the local experience the local knowledge, and we'll be bringing the national sort of bringing in the European standards to the national drinking water tests, the wastewater tests and, you know, working together to, to make sure that the service that the communities get is second to none,

Dusty Rhodes  16:33

I was gonna ask you about that, again, these are things that you're planning, what are the goals for each get Aaron over the next 10 years.

Niall Gleeson  16:39

So we have, we still have, we still have, you know, certainly have some plans, some sorry, some towns and villages that are put are producing raw sewage into sea or the river. The aim is to get rid of those in the next couple of years, most of those have plans in place. And we will be getting, we'll have 95% of those reduced, but I think by the end of 2025. So that's the end of raw sewage going into either the sea or lakes, that's, that's a huge goal. The other one we have we do issue boil water notices on occasion. And there's some long term boil water notice that are very frustrating for people. And we are our aim is to get rid of all of those, we still may have some temporary boil water notices if there's an interruption in the plant or breakdown or extreme weather events. But ideally, we would take the vast majority of people off boil water notices, we have a project called the National Water Resources plan, which is basically has gone around and studied every single resource in the country. And that has been a huge exercise. And we've looked at sort of the resilience of those sources, what's going to what climate change is going to do to them. And the impacts, you know, what's the that area going to develop? Is it going to grow. And that's been a huge study, it's been open for consultation, people are fed into it. And that's our plan for what we're going to do with drinking water over the next 25 years. So that is to improve drinking water, get a very reliable source, provide more where there's growth and make sure that the you know the likes of Dublin can continue to grow, and other urban areas contingent on all of the projections or the population is going to keep growing. And

Dusty Rhodes  18:05

you mentioned climate change. And you know, we are seeing it very real as you know, kind of the weather that we've had this year, we've had glorious June, and then the opposite. And we've had floods kind of going into the winter and stuff like that is climate change, like something that you take very seriously.

Niall Gleeson  18:24

Yeah, we take it very seriously one from a sustainability point of view. So we're trying to make art, we are one of the biggest consumer of consumers of energy in the public sector. I mean, I think we're second the HSE only has because we we use huge amount of pumps and processes to actually process the drinking water and the wastewater. So we have a huge energy bill. And so we're trying to reduce that we're trying to take our energy from more renewable sources. But also we're seeing the impacts of climate change on our plants. So those very heavy rains on the drinking water plants, what you get is a lot of turbidity in the water, which is a lot of solids are mixed up in the water, a lot of if you imagine heavy rain going into River, it churns up everything that's in the in the in the riverbed and in the lake, in the lakes. So it makes our plants work an awful lot harder. So they, they some of them are can can struggle when we get those heavy rain events. But probably the biggest factor is the on the wastewater side. What we have in the original designs, and most of Europe has the same thing as we've got combined storm water and wastewater drains. So the in the vast majority of houses in your state and Dublin, the water that comes off your roof goes into the wastewater system. And the water that goes in off the road goes into the wastewater system as well. So when you get heavy, heavy rains, the wastewater system gets overloaded. And we have what are called storm water overflows. So rather than the water coming up to manholes, which is what would happen if we didn't have these. You have these overflows that allow the sewage, very dilute sewage to go out into rivers or rivers or directly into the sea through these overflow pipes. And that's one of the challenges that we're having where we're getting these more heavy deluge. And you can see it where people are talking about bathing water quality, and all that kind of thing. And sorry, people are becoming much more conscious because we're swimming all year round, actually swim all year round myself. So I'm in Dublin Bay. So I'm very conscious of the issue but as climate change, and as we get those more heavy event and rainfall events that is becoming a more acute problem, but to separate the two systems is a multi billion euro problem project. And I don't think we're, we're a long way for doing that. So what we've got to do is try and work with people upstream to sort of reduce those deluges reduce the, you know, maybe put in those stormwater butts in your house so that you can collect a certain amount of water before it starts overflow, instead of putting in tarmac or carbon lock, put in gravel, those kind of, we're working with the local authorities to see if we can allow more of that water to soak into the ground. Because as soon as it hits hard surfaces, it's straight into the drains and straight into the stormwater and that leads to the to the overflows.

Dusty Rhodes  20:52

And the when you're talking about big massive projects like that you need professional problem solvers that are engineers, what role do engineers play in the operation of each Garin?

Niall Gleeson  21:02

Yeah, look, we're very engineering heavy organization does enough, you know, between operations, you've got our construction site and our construction delivery side, they would be a lot of engineering design an upstream of that, you'd have an asset management team that we'd be looking at, where do we need to invest? What kind of equipment do we need to put in, then you have delivery, and then you have operations, all full with engineers, a lot of scientists in there as well let environment environmental people. So really, we have an awful lot of engineers, it's a great place for engineers to to work, I mean, from here, it's a fantastic area to work, you're delivering water for 4 million people a day, and you're taking their wastewater away. It's quite a fulfilling job. You know, it's it's a great place to work. But it's also very innovative, a lot of exciting stuff going on. So for engineers, I think we took 50 graduates in this year, not all engineers, probably about 20 engineers, but it is a good place to, to get experience and to grow and learn

Dusty Rhodes  21:54

what kind of skills make an engineer stand out in this particular sector.

Niall Gleeson  21:58

I do think I think problem solving skills, but I think you also need to be able to work with the community, we're very much you know, a people facing business, you know, when you're out there solving problems, or if there's leaks, or people are having discolored water, it's good for you to have a bit of a poor bit of the of the ability to talk to customers, and to explain in layman's terms, what are the issues because people don't really understand why, you know, why we're having a burst of Why's the water gun and when your water goes your head, it's it's a big deal. You know, it's there's a lot of stuff you can't do, you can't do now, most houses are supposed to have a you know, you have your water tank in the attic, and you're supposed to have that 24 hour storage. But regulation of plumbing isn't always great. And so sometimes when when the water runs out in the mains, people have problems immediately with, you know, showers and sinks that are fed from the main. So again, explaining those kinds of situations to people is, is useful. So a bit of rapport, I think, as well as being a good engineer.

Dusty Rhodes  22:49

If an engineer is listening to this today, and they're kind of thinking I want to get in on some really big projects. And this sounds like you know, very enticing, what kind of training should they have had up to this point? Or maybe what kind of continuous career development should they be looking at to be part of this Garin?

Niall Gleeson  23:07

Yeah, I look, I don't think there's a will. We have a lot of civil engineers, but we take mechanical, electrical, it's the engineering, discipline, the way you think, is the most important thing. I think, ability to change and be flexible, I think that's going to be really important going forward, you know that you are not soft innovation. As I've said to my own people, innovation is difficult, because the easiest thing for us to do is build the equipment we built last week, because we know it works. And we've delivered that. So trying to innovate trying to change. So it's tricky. So we want people coming in who are you know, entrepreneurial, and will think differently. And if we ask them to to work differently, and they'll, they'll, and change the way they're doing stuff. That's what we want, you know.

Dusty Rhodes  23:52

But I had something very similar when I went into RT first because I was entrepreneurial, or in the words of my manager, I was a troublemaker. And you always have this with a very large organization and people who've been there for decades and done things in certain ways. You're saying you want people to come in and shake that up a little, but it's kind of hard to do. So what's the reality of joining a really large organization and actually being able to have new ideas that you have being implemented?

Niall Gleeson  24:25

Yeah, look, a lot of it is because we have to do our day to day job and we have to deliver that water every day. Let's innovation can be tricky, but we are driving. Like our sustainability program is driving a lot of innovation. We're looking at, you know, solar panels on the roofs of buildings and that kind of stuff. We're also looking at, you know, things like biodiversity, so we want to put in more, you can put in what they call a constructed wetland, which is where you actually create because we are wetland that the wastewater flows through so there's no concrete, there's no pumps, there's no filters. It just literally goes through reedbeds very slowly and they're amazing for wildlife If they're amazing for plant life, and they suit populations of around 1000, to 2000, so small villages that can something, they're not really scalable beyond that, but when you get those the right factors, they're great. And for engineers, that's a real change in mindset, because we love pipes and pumps and concrete, you know what I mean? So, and tell them that you're putting in a bunch of plants there, and you got to pick the right plants. That's an anathema to some engineers, but it is, it is the way we need to start thinking of a mix of solutions, you know. So innovation is something that we were working very hard on. To me, it's looking at pilot projects and getting those to work and demonstrating them and then moving on. So I think you can, it is, you know, you can become institutionalized. But right now he's scared, this is quite dynamic, we've got a really good, we've got really good teams of people who are working to change things. And we've got such a, such a demand ahead, and so much work to do that we have to be innovative. Like, one of the things I'd love to see is, how do we fix pipe from the inside, because we've, we kind of keep digging holes at the rate we're doing. We've 64,000 kilometers of drinking water pipe around the country. So how can we possibly maintain that, by continuously digging up and ripping up pipes, we need to do somehow somehow work from the inside and, you know, through tunneling, or through whatever it is, and I don't know the solution. But somebody has to come up with that for me. And that's stuff we'd like to work on, you know. So you're

Dusty Rhodes  26:24

looking for people who are coming up with new ideas, and there is a fostering of new ideas within the organization, outside of the organization, you mentioned before to bring Irish drinking water up to EU standards. Are you getting innovation from in the EU and elsewhere in the world as to the quality of water and how we can do things better?

Niall Gleeson  26:42

Yeah, there's, I mean, there's lots of stuff going on. And we do we do, try and get me to talk to suppliers and see who's who's innovating and what's working. So yeah, all around Europe and around the world, there are there are people with with clever ideas, there's a lot of clever stuff around, there's an awful problem with leakage in the in the drinking water networks word about 36%. Nationally, as far as the leakage rates, which means a third of our water is going to waste, you know, which is a huge problem. But in Europe, the standard you know, the norm would be around 20%, which is still very high. So has water becomes more and more precious and the cost to make it becomes more and more expensive, looking at leakage and looking at clever ways to fix leakages because a real industry and the some really good stuff going on there like things like acoustic loggers where you put you literally listen to the pipes and see where the leaks are. And that kind of stuff, you know. So it's there's a lot of clever stuff, a lot of smart metering smart networks, they call them where you kind of you know exactly what's happening. We're a little bit away from that. But we're working towards getting those smart networks moving. So a lot of clever technology there as well. It's not just all, you know, digging holes in the ground.

Dusty Rhodes  27:49

No, it does. It sounds like there's a lot of innovation going on. There's a lot of change going on internally, and a lot of modernization which is going on and big problems which needs to be solved, which is fantastic. Do you think as you say you're very engineering heavy. Do you think you're going to be taking on more engineers in the immediate future?

Niall Gleeson  28:06

Definitely. Yeah. I mean, we're crying out for engineers at the moment. So we have a huge recruitment loan program going on. As part of our transformation to you know, the the scare and transformation program, we call it. One of the challenges we have is with our own teams and with the local authorities. A lot of there's a lot of gray hair. I mean, I have it myself, but there's a lot of people who are approaching retirement. So we knew we need a new batch of people coming through to to learn from the existing people, but also take over, you know, the operations and the construction of those sites. So yeah, we're definitely we need we need graduates, we need young engineers who with a few years experience and an even more senior engineer, so across the board we're looking for, for engineers and scientists and accountants and a lot of there's a lot of hiring going on in our industry. And the other area we're looking at is apprenticeships and technicians and those kinds of skills that we want to bring in more out as value.

Dusty Rhodes  28:57

Let me pull out a look at the bigger bigger picture because it can Aaron is just one of the as you say, you know, we've got power. We've got water, we've got the road networks and everything. Where does ishka Aaron's role sit in the building infrastructure to support the national economy?

Niall Gleeson  29:15

Yeah, look, I our friends in Northern Ireland water say there's no no cranes without drains. So we have an abundance of water, like I said at the start. So we should be able to attract industry that needs water. A lot of a lot of industries are very water heavy, but we need to make sure that the infrastructure is there to support that. So I think going forward that is going to be an area you know, as we maybe our tax benefits may not be as strong our national resource of water will will be a big selling point for the country. So definitely I think that will be a good point. But the reality is like a Dublin city without that water supply from the Shannon, towards the end of the decade or early in the next decade will be saying to people we can't take you can't build any more houses. We can't You can't we have no One more capacity for industry doubling this bowl as far as the you know, that we're taking 14% of the flow of the Liffey is being used by Dublin City, we're taking 40% of the river itself to for drinking water and process water. So that is not sustainable. We need it, we need an alternative supply. But, you know, how can you tell people that Dublin is stopped growing, that's just not a practical, that's just not practical. You know, I mean, people talk about, you know, diverting, make, you know, more spatial planning, putting the jobs in other parts of the country, but Dublin is not competing with cork, and Limerick, Dublin is competing with Frankfurt, and Birmingham, and, you know, not not necessarily Paris, but places like that, that that's where the competition that that's where we need to make sure that when we're when we're growing, or when, when we want to attract industry, or people into jobs, that, that we have a place that they can, they can get a house so they can that the industry can come in, and they'll del operate well with the water, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  30:56

finally, Niall to wrap up the podcast today I want to veer off into career progression and development. Because you've done very well starting off from, you know, kind of di t and then going up into into big projects, and then going into management, for people who are listening and that kind of thinking, I want to go more towards the top. What lessons have you learned yourself? That kind of helped you move up the ladder as at work?

Niall Gleeson  31:25

Yeah, look, you move from, I think the move from engineering from being an engineer, where you're kind of designing something or you're installing or fixing something, to moving into management, that's a big change in your in your head, you almost, you have to stop solving people's problems for them. So you know, you might as a more senior engineer, you might immediately say, Okay, I know that guy's problem, and I can tell them the answer. But actually, that's the wrong thing to do. First of all, you don't have the capacity anymore, because you've got lots of other people reporting to you. So you need people to solve problems themselves or to, to work themselves. So it's actually stepping back from the engineering side of things and becoming a team leader or showing the leadership. That's, that's a big transition. And I think that's something that people should learn. And it's hard to do. Because if you're, if you've got a technical speciality, or you, quite often we promote people based on their expertise. And the fact that they were a brilliant engineer, they become a 10 become a manager, that doesn't necessarily translate to being a great manager of people, you know. So it's, it's learning those, that scale of how to manage teams, and how to step back a little bit yourself and not solve the problems, but help the team solve the problems, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  32:36

and when was the first time you realize that?

Niall Gleeson  32:40

Yeah, I mean, I was I was up on a project in Finland, probably in one of my early projects, and there were, you know, there were problems with with the machine. And I was stepping into early with the commissioning engineer tried to solve the problem for him. And rather than, and at the same time, there was other problems having, you know, other other issues happening that I missed, because I was kind of doing the other thing I was going around, actually redoing wiring and things of that, you know what I mean? Because I, you know, I felt that was more capacity, but it wasn't really the management things that I should have been doing, I should have been looking at issues that were happening and issues around cost, and all that kind of stuff that I had probably missed as well. So from the commissioning point of view, everything went great. But from a budget point of view, we, we didn't do quite as well. So that was somewhere that was a an area where I kind of learned the lesson. Now it wasn't, wasn't huge losses, or huge money, but it was kind of you know, don't get into the detail in it.

Dusty Rhodes  33:34

It is a huge change in mindset where you're using your experience and your skill. And you're obviously you could be a very talented engineer, to not solve other people's problems. But to help use all that experience you have to help them figure out whatever the problem is, or to point them in the right direction. It's, it's, it's quite a thing, but it's worked very successfully for you. So congratulations on on all of your success. Also. Thank you Niall, for a fascinating interview today. I mean, it really has been eye opening as to the whole operation of Uisce Eireann and the amount of things you have to do and the scale of it and the amount of engineers you have in there as well working with it. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and just sharing a little bit of time telling us everything.

Niall Gleeson  34:17

Great, thanks, Dusty. It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much.

Dusty Rhodes  34:21

If you'd like to find out more about Niall and some of the topics we talked about today, you'll find notes and link details in the show notes area of your player right now. And of course you'll find more information and exclusive advanced episodes of our podcast at engineersireland.ie. Our podcast today was produced by dustpod.io. If you'd like more episodes, do click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. Until next time, from myself, Dusty Rhodes, thank you for listening.

Water Challenge: Niall Gleeson, CEO Uisce Éireann

Odran shares highlights of his career at the premier family-owned Coffey Group.

He reflects on his trajectory with the firm, favourite projects and most interesting challenges. The episode also looks ahead at the sustainability landscape, including a growing pressure to broaden the options available in terms of construction processes, materials and deployment.

You’ll hear about some fascinating new technologies (like those behind Coffey’s mobile emergency waste treatment plant design) and why it’s so critical that students in Ireland receive plenty of exposure to the many upsides of a career in engineering.

Odran also shares thoughts about the benefits of Continuing Professional Development programmes and the critical role EI plays in upholding a consistent gold standard across the engineering industry.


Topics we discussed include:

  • The M7 Motorway Project’s specific challenges and the creative solutions Coffey engineers found to make it all work.
  • How Coffey culture emphasizes CPS and why it promotes growth and advancement through ongoing professional training and accreditation.
  • Lough Talt Water Treatment Plant
  • How and why Coffey engineers designed a mobile emergency water treatment plant housed within a single 40-foot container
  • The advantage of plug-and-play installations as a time- and labour-saver and China’s lightning-quick ability to design and build fully equipped hospitals using this modular construction.
  • How “pilot” customers are deterred by perceived risk. Can you counter that anxiety with reassuring examples of successful work?
  • About Coffey’s most pressing challenges from labour to finite opportunity.
  • Odran’s predictions on the civil engineering sector, investment in housing, transport and energy and infrastructure improvements needed to support population growth and social demands.

Guest Details

Odran Madden is a Chartered Engineer with over 20 years experience in the construction industry and over 15 years experience at management level undertaking civil engineering and building construction projects of varying scales, values and complexities.

Odran has gained extensive knowledge and experience in water, wastewater, road, rail, energy and specialist engineering projects. His role is to ensure that all projects are completed safely, to a high standard, to our client’s satisfaction and that the project teams are provided with the necessary technical support and resources.

Odran holds BEng and LLB degrees, is a Chartered Engineer, Fellow of the Institute of Engineers of Ireland and an Associate of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators.

Quotes

“I quite enjoy working with water. It's very technically challenging, when you can take wastewater treatment to a safe and clean standard and give that water out to customers to drink, it’s very rewarding.”

“I've certainly come across resistance in Ireland to things like pre-cast concrete over in-situ concrete. Some people do have resistance but it's changing and becoming more and more the norm.”

“We don't really like change … (but) we need to allow the new innovative ways to advance.”

“If you're meeting strangers, they're less likely to accept something that's going to be a little bit different. So you do need to have strong relationships with people. That's why I think having that repeat business is so important to help you get stuff over the line.”

Contact Details

https://www.coffeygroup.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/odran-madden-226bb144/

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer.

https://www.engineersireland.ie/

Transcription text

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate automated transcript of the podcast.

Dusty Rhodes  0:02 

Right now on amplified the engineers journal podcast, we're about to meet the managing director of coffee group adran. Madden are kind

Odran Madden  0:09 

of a person as an engineer, I would say typically they're well rounded individual who is attracted to technical issues and likes to solve problems.

Dusty Rhodes  0:40 

Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and welcome to the engineers Ireland podcast where we're chatting with our community of creative professionals across the country, about how engineers are delivering sustainable solutions for society both now and in the future. Today, we're finding out more about coffee, the family owned firm who over five decades have operated in every major construction sector throughout the UK and Ireland, which is their success is down to the quality efficiency and a belief in their directly employed workforce. At the helm is a man who has been through the twists and turns of successes of the firm working in water, wastewater, road rail energy and specialist engineering projects. He has seen it all it's a pleasure to welcome managing director Odran Madden, how're you doing?

Odran Madden  1:25 

I just see how are you? Thanks for having me on.

Dusty Rhodes  1:27 

So water, wastewater, road rail, energy specialists, engineer, that is a long list of stuff you have done. Have you have you got a favorite project in there?

Odran Madden  1:37 

Yeah, look, it's quite quite a diverse range of projects. And I think coffee I suppose I've been very lucky that I've been able to touch across a lot of these projects. I started doing a lot of road projects when I started first as a graduate engineer, and progressed on to water. And I've done some very interesting projects as well across many sectors. We built a large motorway and in Limerick motorway so that when in a joint venture that was that was very interesting, very, very challenging as well. We did some very large reservoir projects, water towers. And we also did domestic water metering project for Irish water, which proved to be quite politically charged and challenging for us as a contractor to try and deliver on the ground. So yeah, we've we've had some we've had some very interesting projects over the years,

Dusty Rhodes  2:20 

it must be an absolute nightmare working with water, is it? No,

Odran Madden  2:24 

I quite enjoy it. I think it's it's very technically challenging, but very rewarding as well, when you know that you can, you can take some water wastewater treaters to a safe and clean standard and give that water out to customers to drink. It's very rewarding

Dusty Rhodes  2:40 

in that, in that sense, one of the biggest difficulties of working with water, while working

Odran Madden  2:44 

with water, when you take a role water source, you don't really know what's what's in it to start so. So you're designing for a standard of water to start and to treat that and, and that body of water can change and develop over a period of time. So you have to be quite dynamic in your approach and how you can how you can treat on an ongoing basis. And it can be very seasonal as well, different times of the year will bring different challenges when it comes to water water treatment. So yeah, it's it's quite challenging in terms of how you deal with that. Have you ever

Dusty Rhodes  3:14 

had a situation where you're going, okay, based on my experience, the water should do this. And then the water goes off and does something else.

Odran Madden  3:21 

It can just be programmed at the moment in terms of water leakage. And we've been doing quite a lot of work on whatever is water on that and you can repair, repair a section of pipe and think that's great. And then or we just find the next path to put some pressure on and, and cause problems somewhere else down the network. You can also treat water in a treatment plant, and water can be perfectly leaving the treatment plant when and when it gets down the network. It can cause additional challenges depending on the length of the network and the length of time it's been in the pipe. So

Dusty Rhodes  3:49 

can you give me an example of one of those challenges?

Odran Madden  3:52 

Yeah, actually, we had been working on on a project in in LA called fresh water, which was on a boil water notice for a long time and we put in an innovative process to treat the water there. But you know, there were challenges down the network after the treatment because of the length of the network pipe that's that's there around feeding, feeding 12,000 people around around Congress Lagos. So we had to revise some of the some of the treatment procedures there to try and enhance the water quality further on the network.

Dusty Rhodes  4:20 

Tell me about the motorway project that you mentioned in Limerick that's a huge job is that one of the biggest you've tackled?

Odran Madden  4:27 

It is is a single standard on contract. Yes, it is. We were in a joint venture there with two other partners that even even the relationships within the joint venture was more challenging as you can imagine. One of those was a European contractor as well. So we have had language barriers and cultural barriers as well as everything else. But yeah, it was a challenging project in terms of the terrain we were crossing there was a lot of deep bugs. Definitely a tough project to be on but it was it's really really rewarding when you you know get through a project like that and you open that road open you can see the commuters and people But traveling along that road and it being a safer environment for them to travel on,

Dusty Rhodes  5:04 

how do you build a motorway across a bog?

Odran Madden  5:08 

In that regard, we piled it actually, we put in lots of two 3000 concrete piles, we drove them down through the through the bog until they hit solid ground. We also did some quite another innovative technique on some of the smaller access roads and local access roads for farmers and landowners. Where we used tire bales, so basically tires, and we wrapped them in bales, and we put some geotextile around them and build stone over top. And so essentially, it's a floating road.

Dusty Rhodes  5:35 

What was the reaction when he came up with that idea? First, let's get some tires. Yeah.

Odran Madden  5:39 

Yeah, it's it's actually mean it has been used before. And it goes back to even even way back, you'd see that the online commission in the forestry, you know, using all three logs to line across the bugs. So you just, you know, put stone over them. And so the concept of a floating road has been around for forever, in Ireland when we're very used to bugs and having to travel across them. So that concept has been around for a while. Because they're floating, they typically move a little so you know, it's challenging for for a motorway standard road, but for a local access road. It's it's, it's a great solution.

Dusty Rhodes  6:13 

Would you say the bug was the biggest challenge on that motorway?

Odran Madden  6:16 

Yeah, it definitely was on that one. Yeah, absolutely.

Dusty Rhodes  6:18 

Why did you get involved in this business of engineering in the first place?

Odran Madden  6:24 

I guess I was always into construction. I always liked the concept of construction. I didn't I didn't come from a family background of engineers. My father was actually a hotelier. So in two hotels. My mother came from North mayo and a lot of our her brothers and she she had a lot of brothers, they all headed off into, into construction industries across them over to the UK. So they were kind of in that and, and I guess maybe that's where it came from. But I always, I always liked the idea of construction, seeing things being built, how they were built. And I guess I wanted to just get into that was kind of always where I was headed. I never had any doubt I never had any problem filling out my SEO form or anything like that. So yeah, it was quite quite easy for me,

Dusty Rhodes  7:05 

did you ever have something as a kid where you kind of looked at it and went, I wish I did that?

Odran Madden  7:08 

Things like the Lego on the mechanical and all these kinds of things I was, I was absolutely into, you know, again, during school, maths was always a forte, you know. So I was just that way inclined to think you know,

Dusty Rhodes  7:20 

so you're in the engineering business. All right, and you're doing very, very well at it. And now you find yourself in management, how do you go from your kind of the fun side of the business, if you want to put it that way into management? What happened? Yeah, it's

Odran Madden  7:32 

a kind of a gradual process to be honest, us too, because a coffee I was I was very lucky, when you come in at a very young age, you do get to manage aspects of work quite early on in your career, even as even as a graduate engineer. So you do get to kind of manage, you know, gangs of resources, managing materials, managing aspects of a site. So you progress on to managing a small construction site onto a larger construction site and onto a few construction sites at the same time. And it just, it just continues in that way. So it's quite organic, you know, you have that responsibility early on, within engineering that you can, you can do that, certainly from a construction point of view, which is, which is where I grew up if you like, was was on sites. I mean, I came out of college, I was in any way G and civil engineering student, I did a placement with coffee on a road. And then I come back as a graduate on to another project. And I've stayed the coffee, obviously, ever since throughout my career. So I know the business very well, obviously. But I know the path of progression, right from straight through from from being a student engineer, right up to being a managing director.

Dusty Rhodes  8:37 

So being an engineer and involved in Project you do have to manage people, that's that's just part of the gig. And it's kind of led you to where you are today. What about CPD? developing your skills along the way?

Odran Madden  8:48 

Yeah, that's an absolutely massive aspect of it, I think, and hugely important in any industry, particularly engineering construction, it has evolved so much over the years, and how we do things now is actually very different than how we did it in the past, the technology has advanced so much. It I mean, when I started off, you know, we didn't have computers, you know, no mobile phones were even, or even brand new. So we used to we used to handwrite everything that time and or we draw sketches out for the people on the ground and that kind of stuff. So, so it has evolved hugely to a point now where we're, we're using BIM models, and we're going out showing our people with you know, iPads on the underground and showing showing our for what they have to build on screens now. So it's, it's completely changed, you know, particularly when it comes to water water treatment, which is a lot of our business that has evolved as technologies evolve hugely there in that regard. And you know, you think of a business like ours typical construction business, I mean, we we have a lot of process engineers, mechanical, electrical, we have environmental scientists all involved in the process. It becomes quite diverse quite quickly and and CPD is is central to that because you have to understand everything you do as a business, I think and people have to get better and better and at understanding what they're doing in education is really important. And again, I coffee, we promote a lot of that even in terms of master's programs or further diplomas or, you know, as well as things, you know, generally CPD webinars and the like with the likes of engineers, Ireland and others.

Dusty Rhodes  10:19 

Let's talk about sustainability in engineering. How important do you think with the changing world and environment that we're going through how important is sustainability these days,

Odran Madden  10:29 

it's huge, because in construction, we produce a lot of concrete and stone and, and we're digging these things out of the ground. So so we're having a huge impact on the environment, during the projects we're doing so, so to try and positively impact on that for more sustainable methods is, is very significant. And it's really important that we do that. And again, for us, the whole water cycle is really important, and how we can reuse and recycle that water. And we do that so we can take a wastewater stream and ultimately put it back into into a drinking water standards that kind of reuse and recycle and trying to do that more and more also, without chemical addition, is quite significant. And General, other civil engineering products, I mean, the likes of concrete has evolved, you know, that we're using more sustainable concrete, and things like that on road projects, it's all it's all much more sustainable Now than, than it used to be making sure that we're catching any of the pollutants that maybe runoff from roads, and we're not allowing those to go back into the environment and into the, into the land, that kind of thing is growing. And I think we're improving as a, as an industry at that quite a lot over the last, you know, more or less 20 years, certainly.

Dusty Rhodes  11:36 

And where is this being driven by is being driven by customer demand? Or is being driven by, you know, the thoughts and solutions that engineers are coming up with?

Odran Madden  11:45 

Yeah, I think it's, it's probably a mix, businesses are always trying to do more and more sustainable things, particularly in more recent years. And I suppose for business's point of view, that's, that's probably a selling point. And also, so people are trying to corner a bit of America for themselves and come up with some some good solutions, which, which customers will want. And I think it's also coming from regulation, as well as a lot of that from from you're requiring certain standards that industry must comply with, tell me about air cough tech. Yeah, so cough Tech is a very interesting business. For us. It's something we launched during COVID. Actually, we had thoughts and ideas pretty COVID. But it's something we've just launched during COVID. And what what it is, is, it's where we design, manufacture and sell wastewater treatment related technologies. So we're doing so particularly in the modular treatment space. So we're we're basically designing and building here in our offices in Sri in Galway, we can ship them off to wherever customers need them. And we have some various customers in Ireland in the UK for those. And we also true Irish water, or one of our our clients, and they have donated to with the department to water treatment plants out to Ukraine to to help with the treatment of water out there. It's a quite interesting market is quite technical, trying to design a water treatment plant in a in a 40 foot container is essentially all it is. So it's it's yeah, there's this there's definitely an interest out there in the market. It's something that we can, we can build on and we're offering quite a lot a lot a number of solutions and water quality monitoring equipment, again, is is another aspect of of the caf tech business, where we can essentially install systems that allow industry and you know, local authorities and Irish water to understand the quality of the water they have, and then be able to design more defined treatment plants to treat floodwater to get them to the right level they're at. That's something that's becoming quite common now, particularly in industry,

Dusty Rhodes  13:41 

you say that you are building water treatment into essentially a 40 foot container is this designed to be like a permanent installation or a temporary one.

Odran Madden  13:51 

So they can be essentially the plants that we've we've sent out to Ukraine or are designed as an emergency water treatment, we modified the specifications slightly to suit to Ukraine, but they can be either. So in industry, we've put them in as, as permanent, you know, situations where they're just like to, it's a simple quick add on to the back end of a production facility with three units to defense forces as well. So their idea is that they're mobilized those out to Lebanon, or whoever they're mobilizing their resources to so so they can be used in both.

Dusty Rhodes  14:24 

It sounds absolutely fascinating that you've seen this problem in the world and you kind of went okay, we need to design a water treatment plant. And somebody came up with the idea of like, well, let's fit it into this space. Walk me through that project. I mean, when somebody has the first idea, what's the first thing that you do then to start developing it?

Odran Madden  14:42 

So once we have a an idea or a requirement to do something, we just get our project teams together and and we get a bit of brainstorming going and start teasing old ideas. And it's important when we're doing these things that we have people from different different aspects of our business from the construct Inside the design side, the operation and maintenance side because we also operate almost 50 treatment plants around the country so, so we have that experience as well. So it's pulling all the right people into a room together. And having a brainstorming session, essentially, to try and come up with a design, which will work to suit to suit the requirements of customers. The first design is never the final design, when it comes to these things, when you're, when you're manufacturing something, it will evolve, you will have continuous improvement, which is again, continuous improvement is something we're all about here a coffee as well. So it's important that we keep improving everything that we're doing, when it comes to these designs.

Dusty Rhodes  15:35 

So do you do a lot of computer modelling?

Odran Madden  15:37 

Yeah, BIM is a huge aspect of our business now as it will be for most most of businesses in engineering now. So yeah, we have full BIM capability. And we will, you know, when it comes to the likes of the modular treatment plants, they'll be all designed on BIM, particularly when you're talking about clash detection and things like that. So you can know that everything will fit where it should fit, you can get access to everything down in terms of maintenance and operations as well.

Dusty Rhodes  16:02 

And then when you're constructing and putting together your first physical model, surely you're coming up with parts and pieces and ideas that just aren't available in the market that you can just buy off the shelf, how do you construct it and put the whole thing together?

Odran Madden  16:14 

Yeah. So typically, when it comes to water treatment, you will have your overall process, you'll have a process design, which is the pressure filtration followed by UV disinfection. So so they'll be the key components, and then you're, you're just figuring out what how you move the water through the system, how you control and automate and manage that. So once you have two key components, everything else is available. I mean, all the things we use are available on the market, we don't typically design things that that's not available on the market yet, you know, so these are all typically tried and trusted technologies we're using, and it's just the configuration and and how you get the efficient use of space within that small space. Did you have an affordable container?

Dusty Rhodes  16:55 

And what drove that initial idea of trying to get it into a 40 foot container? Was that something that was happening in the world? Or was it just a random idea?

Odran Madden  17:03 

Yeah, no, it's look, it's something that's out there. So we're trying to do more more of that plus, the added benefit here is we can build it in a factory environment as opposed to on a site. So when you're building it in a in a factory environment, your quality is better your health and safety standards are better, you've got a better opportunity to refine and enhance your design. And it means less traveling around for you know, construction workers typically travel around so means less time traveling the countryside for, for a lot of our people, which is obviously much, much, much better for them, and a lot of them going to try and do is make sure that we can, we can get our people home every day, you know, as always, doesn't always work, of course and construction, but that's something we like to we like to try and do anyway. So there's just a huge amount of added benefits. Plus, you know, if you're working in a in a site or in a in an industrial situation, you're in and out quickly, you know, it's plug and play type approach, you're in and out quickly. The impact and you know, that you have the disruption that you have on businesses is smaller on on customers are small. So so that's that's important as well, I think that adds value.

Dusty Rhodes  18:05 

Getting away from the coffee business, we've come back. I'm just gonna thinking about out in the world things other people have done or big construction or engineering projects that have impressed you in the last two to three years.

Odran Madden  18:21 

I think in the last two or three years, I think some of the things that have been been really impressive we saw in in China at the outset of COVID, how they managed to build hospitals in a matter of weeks, which is, which is incredible when you when you think you know how long it might take us to do that here. You'd wonder how long had they been planning it in advance, but it's very, very impressive to build hospitals fully kitted out for patients very, very quickly, in quick charts way to sign so that's that's something that is certainly registered with me. And I think it feeds back into that whole modular construction as well, that offsite fabrication and construction, because that is the way we will build quicker as a society. It'll speed up the construction time. But certainly onsite time will will speed knowing, you know, I think that's that's that's going to be some of the future for us.

Dusty Rhodes  19:09 

I can understand where where you are on site and you're building it and you're actually putting it together and the building is taking shape. What if you're literally putting it together 50 miles away, and then you have to transport it. That's that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are the advantages?

Odran Madden  19:22 

Yeah, so typically, every component you're going to build on a construction service to be transported there anyway. So depending on where your production facility is, you know, there's probably no net gain or loss in transport. So the benefits come to the quality of the product in that it's built in a much more controlled environment rather than out on a construction site possibly opened in inclement weather or poor lighting or all the other issues that might might cause quality issues. Health and safety will be a massive benefit as well. And that you're having people working in a better controlled environment so that they're not walking across rough sites or sites. Are you gonna go up and down scaffolding to the same extent or excavations or just working in a more suitable location to carry out somebody's, somebody's works. And then I think you also have the benefit of the install timeframe. So the amount of time you're on site will reduce drastically as well. And that's a great benefit to the people who are there that you don't have to have people driving the countryside to go to the construction sites. And similarly to the customers, you know, that you're not disrupting or impacting on people in the way that you might if you're building everything, everything on a site, the efficiency, the safety, the quality, all those things, then obviously, can lead to, to commercial benefits as well.

Dusty Rhodes  20:41 

Do you think that there is an acceptance of this in Ireland or resistance?

Odran Madden  20:45 

I think we're getting there. I you know, I've certainly come across resistance in Ireland, and indeed, in the UK as well, when it comes to things like precast concrete over in situ concrete, some people do have a resistance to that it's certainly changing, and it's becoming more, more and more the norm, but there are still certain claims certain people who still are like the old way, I think there's an awful lot of that in construction that will, let's just stay with the trend. And trust it, because because it works. And we don't really like change, there's certainly an element that I think is sad, we need to we need to move another little bit with that and allow the new innovative ways to advance.

Dusty Rhodes  21:19 

And how do you get this across to people? How do you convince them?

Odran Madden  21:22 

I suppose the first thing people always look for all our references, you know, so the first time is always the challenge. So So you have to build pilot projects, you have to do pilots and basically tried to convince them to say, well, this is what we've prepared. And this is how it works. And, and yeah, there'll be an element of some people taking a chance on the first one. But the more we go with this, the more people will believe in, in the whole, the off site, or the modular or the, you know, doing things a little bit differently. And, yeah, I think it's, it's growing as a concept within the industry.

Dusty Rhodes  21:50 

Have you had a situation where you are there as an engineer, and you've come up with a brilliant solution to a problem. But you're trying to explain to the client that this is new, and they are going to be the pilot? And they're kind of going well give me a reference and you go well, I can't because you're the pilot? How does it? Have you had an experience like that?

Odran Madden  22:11 

Yeah, we have quite a few, there's this on a lot of projects, we'll have that we'll try and introduce and it might be just some, some new product. But yes, clients will say, Well, this is what I specified. So this is kind of what I want. And it's understandable as well, you know, they're, they might want to take the risk, they just want the project to work. So so you can see why there is a bit of reticence in, in accepting all of these new technologies. And, you know, I completely don't all work either. So it's, it's, it is understandable. So I think clients probably need to just be a little bit more open to reviewing it in a little bit more detail. You know, sometimes it's very quick, no, whereas, you know, it possibly should be a little bit. Okay, let's, let's, let's have a proper look at this and see what a work, you know,

Dusty Rhodes  22:55 

and there's a lot of a down to personal relationships and the length of the relationship and building up trust,

Odran Madden  23:00 

there's always an element of that, for sure, you know, and if you have a trusting relationship with somebody, which is huge in any business, but for us having having that relationship and a proper collaborative type relationship is really, really important. You know, because if you're meeting meeting strangers, they're less likely to accept something that's, that's going to be a little bit different. So you do need to have strong relationships with people and and that's why I think, you know, having that repeat businesses is important to help you get stuff over the line.

Dusty Rhodes  23:27 

Coffee is a very innovative company, and you're involved in a lot of very exciting things at the moment, where do you see civil engineering going in the future?

Odran Madden  23:37 

I think civil civil engineering will be will be huge, I mean, it and it has to be a minutes across all of the sectors we we need to continue to invest in, you know, we talk about about housing and transport and energy and civil engineering is the backbone of a lot of all of those things in all the infrastructure that's needed. So so as we have a growing and changing population in society, civil engineering projects will be absolutely required, we will need to continue to develop our infrastructure to keep up with that population growth and societal demands.

Dusty Rhodes  24:10 

And what kind of projects then are coffee working on at the moment in order to do that,

Odran Madden  24:14 

we do a lot in the water, water space, so water wastewater treatment, water obstructions, as reservoirs, pipelines. And we're doing some obviously transport projects and the like, and some of those projects are typically you know, client driven and that they decide what they want and we can build them where we are looking at things ourselves is from an energy point of view are things like how we use hydrogen in society and how we can we can help in terms of some of the aspects of that so there's certainly something something there and around the whole climate side and and renewable energy even you know, we're looking at the sites we operate and seeing how we can make doors more energy efficient and and how we can use renewable energy to help with those operations sites because energy energy is the biggest element of of a site when you're operating For a treatment

Dusty Rhodes  25:02 

that's significant. And where do you see hydrogen being used?

Odran Madden  25:05 

As you think hydrogen is a huge opportunity for for Ireland, we have a huge opportunity to produce and potentially export, we're not a big industrial country. So from a demand point of view, we don't have a huge demand there, we do obviously, in transport so, so buses and trucks and the lake is the obvious one, but it's a few of which can be can be stored. So we talk about, you know, what happens when the, when the wind turbines when the wind isn't blowing, so I think hydrogen can can help there. But I also think it's an export opportunity, you know, into places like Germany, and that where they don't have the wind power that we have from the Atlantic Ocean, there's an opportunity here, and we talk about the green hydrogen, which is obviously, you know, offshore wind to produce hydrogen, and I think that's, that's where I think we can have a huge benefit there.

Dusty Rhodes  25:51 

And then as a company, then what's the biggest challenge that you're facing at the moment,

Odran Madden  25:55 

the biggest challenge at the moment, to be honest, is resource, so trying to get the people to do all the work that our customers want. So as an industry, you know, construction, and the recession is very fresh in everybody's mind still. And so if a lot of parents perhaps out there, maybe saying don't go into construction, you know, you might not have a job and a few years, but I think it's it can be a really, really sustainable industry. And I think we do struggle to try and get engineers and trades, you know, apprentices we we try to take on a lot of apprentices do a lot of work going out to schools, you know, participate in Engineers Week with engineers, Ireland and things like that, trying to trying to sell the engineering brand, if you like and trying to encourage young people into construction and engineering. And it's tough because we're competing with you know, a lot of the foreign direct investment companies in in Ireland and a big pharmaceuticals and the tech companies, they probably seem much more attractive to young school kids know. So it's important that we can try and sell Construction and Engineering as as sustainable industries, older people can have a good career out of it. I absolutely believe they can. So yeah, that's our that's probably our biggest challenge right now. We could, you know, we could do more if we had more.

Dusty Rhodes  27:02 

And once you have people involved in the company, do you find it easy to retain staff?

Odran Madden  27:08 

No, we don't, I think it's, again, due to the location and you know, we've got construction sites all over the place, people don't generally want to travel as much anymore. I know when, when I came out of college, I was over, you know, delighted to move on to a different town every every so often. It was part of the experience. I don't think it kind of happens as much anymore. So yeah, so So from that point of view, it can be challenging at Coffee we've been trying to do a lot to retain our people and put people first and everything we're trying to do but it's it's it's attracting them in the first instances is a challenge and retaining is also challenging

Dusty Rhodes  27:42 

when you say keep up because I thought it was interesting that one of the things that coffee seems to be proud of is a directly employed workforce, what is the advantage for the workforce being directly employed as as opposed to being a contractor

Odran Madden  27:56 

for us to deliver projects being having that directly employed workforce means that we can control the production of the work control safety control the quality an awful lot better with our own people? We can we've we've got a lot of people who are with us 20 years plus, you know, in the business and and, you know, does it does, it does it obviously a strong loyalty there, from the company to the people and the people that accompany which is fantastic. And we like to try and use that to bring more kind of younger people through and get the training and experience from those, those more senior people in the business. And so, so we like to have that self deliver resource capability. And it gives us as a business then a greater understanding of, of what's actually involved in the work sometimes with subcontractors, you know, we can leave them to do their work, and not fully understand it. So, so we like to, you know, work with our people to try and help improve everything we're doing.

Dusty Rhodes  28:50 

And when you're trying to get people involved in the engineering business, what's what's your pitch, when you're out to talking to the parents of kids who are kind of wondering what am I going to do with my life?

Odran Madden  28:59 

Yeah, it just taught me a couple of different aspects of it, I suppose the you know, if you're looking at people going trying to convince people to go into the trades, I mean, the trades are whisked away trades like the blood playing in the plastering, and I think they're, they're tough to try and convince people going into legs those ones but but carpentry was always good on both mechanical and electrical, our are really really good trades to go into people can build really, really good careers. And not just necessarily in construction, but when you go into any manufacturing environment as mechanical electrical trades in there as well. So there's, there's a huge opportunity, I think, for anybody going into those kinds of trades and and and it can become quite specialist. You know, we're involved in a couple ourselves in developing some of the training courses even on you know, pipelining and things like that, but it can get quite technical. When you get down into the detail of what you need to do. You're teaching people some some really, really good skills that can be transferred to different industries and and can help people travel around the world as well if they if they so choose, you know, so give them that option. Their skills that there will always be be worked for So from from from a trades point of view, I think it's, it's a fantastic, you know, set of skills to learn and an ability for people to go down that road. From an engineering point of view, then people who are engineers are problem solvers. And I've seen lots of engineers and people who are on my own class in college, have come out of engineering, and they're, you know, high up in other businesses in other sectors, because you've got that problem solving ability and being able to manage people and being you know, because you get to experience managing people from from a young age. So, yeah, so there's a huge market there. I know, engineering is very diverse, in terms of what you can, what you can get into, there's lots of opportunities.

Dusty Rhodes  30:35 

Let me wrap up by asking about engineers, Ireland, what would you say is one of the most useful things that you have gotten personally from being a member of engineers, Ireland?

Odran Madden  30:45 

I think the CPD has been great. I think also the not the kind of networking opportunities you have within within engineers, Ireland is very good as well, you know, and they have two professional titles, I think that's really important. That gives you the, the recognition internationally, you know, being a chartered engineers is a fantastic title. And that is something that is recognized internationally. So again, you know, for people who who do decide to travel, and often people do, having that Chartered Engineer status is and title is, is really, really important. So, I think there are two big things that engineers can do to do really, really well.

Dusty Rhodes  31:22 

Can you give me a specific example of something that engineers Ireland did for you the push your career forward?

Odran Madden  31:27 

I think it's that we did get a lot of encouragement to go and do that. chartership and I think that's quite positive. And I think I know what helped me, you know, hear my own career even within coffee. At that time, I think, you know, people used to clients used to look for chartered engineers to, you know, to lead their projects. And so being able to have that on my CV was important for coffee to put forward and put names forward. So, so that is that has helped you

Dusty Rhodes  31:49 

out and Madden, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you for taking the time out to chat with us today. Thanks so much to see. If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast today. You'll find Milton link details in the show notes or description area of our podcast on your player right now. And of course you find more information and advanced episodes on our website at engineers Ireland dot aid. Our podcast today was produced by does pod.io for engineers, Ireland and if you'd like more, do click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all of our past and indeed all our future podcasts. Until next time, thank you so much for listening.

AMPLIFIED: Odran Madden, MD at Coffey

With his long and varied history at JB Barry, Liam Prendiville has tremendous perspective to offer.

Liam shares thoughts on some of his most captivating projects – ranging from decade-long roadway efforts, to public transit extensions, to cutting-edge wastewater treatment facilities. He also looks at the growing demand for environmental sustainability, a trend Liam believes will profoundly impact every sector and offer a wealth of opportunities for engineers to chase creative, innovative solutions!

Looking back on his years with JB Barry elicits understandable pride and Liam is equally excited for the horizon ahead, which includes all manner of civil, environmental, structural and transportation challenges.

We wrap up with a wish list for Dublin infrastructure and a shout-out to Engineers Ireland for sponsoring a paper Liam co-authored about the exciting possibilities open to engineers interested in pursuing the international market, as he did in the 1990s with tremendous results.

Listen below or on your podcast player! 


Topics we discussed include:

  • Experiences navigating projects in Bosnia, Latvia, the Gaza Strip and elsewhere.
  • The Ringsend Wastewater Treatment Plant Upgrade Project.
  • How the M8 Cashel to Mitchelstown  roadway project offered new ways of managing the project process, engaging in the pre-planning stage with contractors, maximising contract negotiation and optimising communications in a way that has since been replicated.
  • Why centralised, Dublin-centric transportation planning has to be expanded to include more byways that support regional travel and economies.
  • The current and primary focus of JB Barry design and project management
  • The journey from senior engineer into the executive ranks.
  • Opportunities for engineers to provide solutions to a number of large political, economic, environmental and social impacts.
  • Why Liam believes Ireland’s fortunes are very bright, with a strong economy at the tip of the spear and exciting new ways of conceiving things like housing.

Guest details

Liam is a Chartered Engineer with over 35 years’ experience. He specialises in Transportation and Traffic Engineering. For almost two decades, he has been at the helm of JB Barry and Partners, one of Ireland’s leading Consulting Engineers. They offer a wide variety of services in the Civil Engineering, Environmental Engineering, Structural Engineering, Transportation Engineering and Safety & Health sectors and have completed numerous successful projects in each area.

Quotes

“The construction of motorways is a very small element of the carbon impact. The real impact is on yourself and myself driving around in diesel or petrol cars. You can see that the move towards electric cars has taken hold. It's certainly there.”

“Using the same footprint and the same size of site, we can treat a 60% or 70% greater volume of wastewater. Now that's using innovation to drive great results!”

“The environmental issues and climate action demand is really going to create a very exciting opportunity for engineers. It's all going to have to be engineered!”

Contact Details

https://www.jbbarry.ie/wp/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/liam-prendiville-073b3a37/

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programmes and resources on offer.

https://www.engineersireland.ie/

 

TRANSCRIPTION TEXT

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate automated transcript of the podcast.

 

Dusty Rhodes  0:03 

Right now on Amplified the Engineers Journal Podcast, we're about to meet the managing director of JB Berry and partners, Liam Prendiville.

Liam Prendiville  0:10 

An engineer is somebody who sees a problem and their instinct is to look forward as this is the problem, how are we going to resolve it? How do we move forward?

Dusty Rhodes  0:40 

My name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to Amplified the Engineers Journal podcast, where we speak with our community of creative professionals across the country about how engineers are delivering sustainable solutions for society, both now and in the future. Today, we're chatting with a man who has seen many changes in the industry over the past few decades, and is looking ahead to the future and planning for what's next as well. From JB Barry and partners, one of Ireland's leading Consulting Engineers and Civil Environmental, structural and transportation engineering. It's a pleasure to welcome managing director Liam Prendiville. How're you doing

Liam Prendiville  1:14 

I'm are doing great Dusty. Thank you very much for inviting me to do this podcast.

Dusty Rhodes  1:18 

You've enjoyed a very long and successful career with JB Barry, looking back at your time now. And I was managing director but looking back at your time when you were kind of very hands on as a senior engineer. Were there any particular projects or problems that you solved that kind of still give you satisfaction to this day?

Liam Prendiville  1:37 

Dusty, we spend our time solving problems that at the time seem very big, but they aren't drift into history. And they're all resolved. I suppose if I was to pick a project or period, I worked overseas for a number of years in the late 90s. And when the road program kicked off in the early 2000s, we got involved in the main inter urban motorway projects with the NRA. And we did some very interesting and innovative projects, both in terms of the projects themselves, and in the way that they were formulated and contracted. If I was to pick one project, I'd say Cashel to Mitchelstown Motorway was an innovative project.

Dusty Rhodes  2:16 

What was the problem there?

Liam Prendiville  2:18 

I suppose if there's anything unusual about that particular stretch of road is that it runs very close to the Galtee mountains. And that generates a drainage issue, because you get run off quite quickly off very steep slopes, and you have to be able to deal with that, you have to design for that. But the really innovative thing on the Cashel to Mitchelstownscheme was that it was developed as an early contractor involvement type scheme, which has a slightly different procurement method that was used in the past or is used since it takes the confrontational aspect to some degree out of the contractual relationship between the contractor and the client.

Dusty Rhodes  2:55 

Okay, and how had it been done before?

Liam Prendiville  2:57 

Previously, schemes were designed up to a certain level of specimen design. And it's issued out to four or five contractors to tender it post getting planning from an Bord Pleanala. Historically, the lowest paid one got the job and they were contracted, and then you moved from there. So that's fine. And it's a well used method. But in early contractor involvement, you involve the contractor earlier at the pre planning stage, so they have input in the planning stage. So you get more constructibility built into your design. And the contractual arrangement is on a cost plus basis. So you don't get that confrontation, financial confrontation.

Dusty Rhodes  3:45 

It doesn't run that way anymore?

Liam Prendiville  3:49 

No, that early contractor involvement process was used on Cashel to Mitchelstown. And it may have been used on one or two other projects. But the process reverted and back to design and build form of contracts for roads and other forms of contracts. The new government form of contract was introduced in 2007/2008. And that was put into use POST Cashel to Mitchelstown

Dusty Rhodes  4:15 

So then thinking about Cashel to Mitchelstown, what were the constraints, what were the physical constraints that you had to work with?

Liam Prendiville  4:21 

Well, the physical constraints are relatively repetitive unrolled schemes at the time, and I suppose, I think if you look at the broader picture at the time, we were developing hundreds of kilometers of motorway over a period of 10 years. So all the requirements in terms of people and plant and equipment, were all there and were used on an ongoing basis. And all the all the skills of design and construction were well practiced. And that's a very efficient way of rolling projects often reduces the risk, because all the risks have been met on previous counts, tracks and they've been ironed out. So you got to flow and that's why the NRA, they really did a very good job in developing their project management processes. And in the achievement of building the motorways, the main inter Urban's in the period from 2000 to 2010. That was a fantastic achievement.

Dusty Rhodes  5:18 

Do you think it's right though for Ireland as a country with the transport the way it's set up that all of these motorways tend to just converge on the capital?

Liam Prendiville  5:26 

Absolutely not. It's stage one of a multistage development of the island. You know, you have to look at Limerick, which would get you to Galway, Waterford, Cork, Waterford to Limerick. But if you look at the map of Ireland, there's very few links missing. Obviously, there's projects to link Dublin to Derry. And there's an A five project in Northern Ireland linked to an end to project here in in the Republic, which will open up Donegal, you'd have achieved a lot if you put those missing links into place Dusty, I think and the great thing I would focus on about motorways, and we'll probably come to it later. But motorways allow our buses to run at high frequency and at predictable timetables. It's now very feasible and very practical to get a bus from Dublin to cork or Dublin to Galway. And that's really supported by the motorway network.

Dusty Rhodes  6:28 

Do you think then that that's more efficient than trains?

Liam Prendiville  6:32 

I think it is. It's more practical than trains but they're not. They're not exclusive for one, one doesn't compete necessarily with the other. If you look at the train network in Europe, where trains travel 300 kilometers an hour now that, that's a step too far for us, possibly. But if you could certainly travel 200 kilometers an hour, and Dublin to Cork would then be you know, a little over an hour on a train that would be attractive. So there is absolutely a future for trains. But the motorway network is there and the buses are running out and they're getting a lot of passengers

Dusty Rhodes  7:11 

We're seeing a crossover as well in society at the moment there and it's specifically to do with motorways and and road transport in that we're going from petrol and diesel engines to electric engines, how do you think that's going to affect transport overall?

Liam Prendiville  7:25 

It'll be a big win for transport. Without a doubt. The fact that you know 95% of the carbon emissions in transport is from the operation of the scheme, the construction of motorways is a very small element of the carbon impact, the real impact is on yourself and myself driving around in diesel or petrol cars. You can see that the move towards electric cars has has taken hold. It's certainly there. I know that people who are looking who are in the market for a new car, or certainly looking at electric cars. And I think one of the keys to that, and I think we've discussed this before, is your ability to have a charging point in your home. I think leaving home with the expectation of finding a charging point someplace else is just, it's unnerving.

Dusty Rhodes  8:21 

Yes and no. I'm sure with the early petrol cars, it was unnerving. Leaving home when there were no petrol stations. So maybe we're going through the same thing. But you're right in that when you're looking at planning. I mean, for houses, it's not so bad, because you've got to drive by and Ireland is very much a housing kind of a country. But in the last 20 years, we've become more and more reliant on apartment blocks and apartment buildings. Not so easy. If you own an electric car. Is there any kind of retrograde works that can be done there do you think are what way should we be thinking?

Liam Prendiville  8:57 

Oh, absolutely. And certainly, all future apartment blocks. The expectation would be that all these parking spaces would have a charging point. I think that's a given. Retrofitting them costly, I'm not too sure. I'm not too sure.

Dusty Rhodes  9:16 

Let me talk about your own personal career Liam. What will you experience from because you were very successful as an engineer and a senior senior engineer, and now you're the managing director? How did you go from from working on the shop floor as it were to running the shell?

Liam Prendiville  9:32 

I suppose the career path was that JB Barry started in 1959 as a water consultant, very brave thing to do to set up a design business in 1959. The country was a very, very poor place in 1959. It was before TJ vinegar and Lamar started making the country look externally rather than internally. So we moved into structures allied to the water industry, and then we worked overseas for a while I worked myself in the 90s He's in Bosnia and Latvian Albania, worked in Gaza for a while. And in Beirut. And I must say that that working abroad, dusty taught me a lot. You're in a different environment. Yeah. We chased work in Bosnia in the early 90s. And I had no compunction to bring the Minister for this, or the Minister for that, which is something I would never have done in Ireland, because there's a structure and there's a hierarchy. And there's things you do and things you don't do. So I learned a lot there. And when the road program started in 2000, that we formed a relationship with a UK firm called Halcrow. And we changed the rules, Martin, and that's where I sort of moved from being involved in projects to chasing work in a new sector. So that was the start of the move, maybe from being completely involved in projects to getting involved in the, in the marketing.

Dusty Rhodes  10:51 

And was that something that came from somebody above? Who saw potential in you to be able to say, Graham, we want to take one of our best engineers here, and we want him to get him in on the on the pre planning stage with a potential client about what could be done? Or was it something where you said to yourself, you know, I think I would rather be out talking to people and to get them working with JB and to get new projects in for the firm. You know,

Liam Prendiville  11:14 

all of these things, there's a lot of a lot of luck and a lot of false steps. And it's very hard to post analyze it. And it depends who writes the history, as you know, I might write it one way, and other people might see it completely differently. Well, actually, what happened, I suppose is that working overseas, we actually spent time looking for work as well as doing it. So that gave me exposure to that overseas work came to an abrupt halt because one of our partners struggled financially. And we were no longer involved in that. And it coincided with the starting of the main entrance, carbon road network. And it was quite clear that they needed, they needed more people involved, they're going possibly from spending 200 million a year on the road program to spending in 2007, they spent 1.8 billion, so you can't increase the spend without it involved involving more and more people. So there was opportunity there, the market was growing, I knew a couple of people in the market. And the guys running the company at the time, were happy to let me chase it the load, we spent a lot of time chasing the market.

Dusty Rhodes  12:23 

And at one stage did you say to yourself, I think I could offer a lot as the managing director of this firm, and I could bring the firm certain places and improve it. And did you make it your mission to say, I would like that job?

Liam Prendiville  12:36 

Absolutely not no. I go back to what I said previously, I commend those 50 people like it's more like it's more like a family than a corporation. And a lot of our competitors, dusty are large global companies. We have companies here in Ireland that have a presence all over the world. Some of them have employee levels of 7080 90 100,000 people worldwide. So they run a very corporate affair they have, you know, they have very identified structures, whereas 90% of our work is in Ireland. And as a result, the scale of our operation moves with the cycle of expenditure in Ireland. And it's looks as if it's a 10 year cycle, I'm afraid.

Dusty Rhodes  13:25 

Speaking of the work that you're involved in, you're involved in a lot of disciplines. Is there is there any one that you're particularly busy with the water

Liam Prendiville  13:33 

design element and project management in the water space, which is water supply, wastewater collection and treatment, stormwater and flooding, that's remained a constant throughout the history of the company, and that's still very vibrant. And areas what has changed in the market is water there. They're actually using, funnily enough, some ECI project early contractor involvement projects going back to Capitol two meters down. So So that's very vibrant, and consistent. The transportation sector this changes within that we're still have a lot of highways work, but there's a big move towards active travel and public transport, which is, you know, supporting the climate change agenda and society is changing its direction on transport. I mean, there's absolutely no doubt about that. And the younger generations will change it even more rapidly. And I suppose energy is probably the exciting thing at the moment if you were to look at it you know, the generation distribution and use use of energy has to be the most exciting thing that's going on at the moment with

Dusty Rhodes  14:42 

the water it must be disappointed when you're in volved in large projects and working in large projects because what is usually hidden away and most people don't see it, you know, when you're out kind of talking to people what would you love to scream at them to go this is the project I did

Liam Prendiville  15:00 

think sometimes I think sometimes dusty, you just have to accept that you're doing a good job and get some satisfaction from that.

Dusty Rhodes  15:06 

I know Come on, I give you an opportunity now to to blow your trumpet. Tell me one that you Oh, well,

Liam Prendiville  15:11 

okay. Okay, if you want to? Yes, please, we're at the moment, I mean, we've done a large number of wastewater treatment plants. At the moment, we're involved in the rings and the upgrade of the rings and wastewater treatment plant, which is the water treatment plant for the dump the greater Dublin area. So we're increasing the capacity of that plant dramatically. And that's an ongoing process it's going to go on for it has been going on and will go on for a total of maybe 10 or 12 years. It's an existing operating plant that's treating a large percentage of the wastewater from the Dublin area. And we've teamed up with other companies, one of them brings a specialist treatment process with it, which means that using the same footprint using the same size of site, we can treat 60 or 70%, greater volume of wastewater. Now that's using innovation, to drive great results,

Dusty Rhodes  16:09 

keeping yourself up to speed actually on changing technology and everything and processes, as you say abroad. And things that are happening, how do you keep yourself up to date and stay current with the latest engineering trends?

Liam Prendiville  16:22 

Well, I suppose one of the things we've always done from a very early age stage in the company is we've we've formed joint ventures with international companies as required. And with people with either, if we need additional resources, it's one type of partner we need. And if it's a particular expertise in an area, it's another. So the example will be royal haskoning DHV, who have brought the process to earnings, and we have a relationship with them, we have a joint venture with them. When we entered the roads market, it was the Halcro group from the UK, because they had they had expertise in the roads market, they also had capacity. So we had local knowledge and good reputation here. It's a small island here. You know, if you have a good reputation, it travels from one sector to another, as you know, I'd love to

Dusty Rhodes  17:16 

ask you, what is lineup for JB berry over the next couple of years? Is that something you talk about? Or is it top secret?

Liam Prendiville  17:23 

No, no, it's very clear. To me, I mean, it's been in the news for the last week. But it's been top of the agenda for a while, there's been a lot of factors impacting on our business and on society at large, like Brexit, Brexit has created a changed environment. COVID obviously has a very significant impact on the way we think, created an environment where a lot of change that might not have been possible is now possible, maybe there's material supply disruption driven, possibly by the war war in Eastern Europe, there's other factors in there maybe as well as a lot of political change in Ireland, and there's going to be more political change. But the environmental issues and climate action demands is really going to create a very exciting opportunity for engineers, it's all going to have to be engineered the provision of electricity, the distribution of electricity, the reduction of carbon emissions in all the sectors mean, you can see the political wrangling over whether it was 20% or 30%, for agriculture, and the impact on transport as transport is in there in a big way. And we're doing a lot of work there already, but it's only going to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

 

Dusty Rhodes  18:35 

Well, let me ask you, then I'm sure you see that movie Back to the Future. They filmed it in the 80s. But they were imagining what life would be like in 2020 or something like that. Alright, and they actually got a lot of stuff, right? The big screen TV and there are there are so many other things recite I can't remember order. But I remember watching the movie like only recently kind of gone. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. So in your own mind looking 20 years ahead, what is it going to look like?

Liam Prendiville  19:02 

Wow, that's a really good question, isn't it? It's the only way I can imagine is by going back 20 years, and looking at what I thought Ireland would be like in 2020. And, you know, Did I did I see electric cars on the road? And the uptake of those? I didn't? Absolutely not. Did I see the absolute conversion of everybody to the reality of climate change? I didn't see that. So looking forward 20 years. Obviously, there'll be bumps on the road. But certainly, on this island. I think it's a fantastic place to live. I think we have a novel lot of things going for us. Being an island has a lot of advantages that keeps you out of the way of a lot of things. Our climate, our climate is better than you could dream for. I think, even though I suppose it gives us the opportunity to complain about the rain as well, which we like to do. We like to have something to complain about. But and also, like if you look at the growth in, in wealth in the country, which in itself probably doesn't actually make people happier. But that's well beyond engineering. But like, if you take the tax taken in 1980, when I started in Ireland was 3 billion a year, and now it's heading for at, you know, we're a wealthy country. We don't have great historical wealth. We have, we have a vibrant economy. So I think the future for Ireland is dramatically, I think, 20 years time, I think it could be very positive.

Dusty Rhodes  20:38 

We have a housing shortage at the moment, do you think that Irish minds are going to change about how we look at housing? Because traditionally, I think it's going back to the famine, okay. Because people didn't own their own houses, and they've could have been thrown off the land. And it's been in the psyche, since I must own my own home, and it must be a home. Whereas that's changing lately, do you think we're going to get to a stage where people will think about more communal ways of living, possibly with ways where they don't actually own the roof over their head, but they do have tenancy rights?

Liam Prendiville  21:14 

Yeah, it's a very, very interesting question. And I think you've hit the nail on the head with the tenancy rights thing, possibly. You know, there are other models over ours, and you go back to our history, and you're right, our history drives our thought process. We'd like to own our own house, it gives us a security, it does make society stable as well, maybe. But the French model, if you wanted to go go there, a lot of people have lifetime tenancies in, in apartments. And that's another model. I think, as generations move, you get change in people's approach, I have no doubt that we can change people's approach, we have a private client business, which is probably 20% of what we do, we probably at any one time have between seven and 8000 residential units, at various stages of development from pre planning to in planning to construction. And we're not a big player in that market. There are much, much bigger players here. So there are a lot of residential units being developed, get those to the construction, some of the challenges I mentioned earlier, supply of materials. Inflation, may impact on the development of those. But I think you're right a model of model of ownership is probably the biggest element of it. Now you're after drifted me a long way from engineering. Now let's go back to put blocks on blocks at exactly,

Dusty Rhodes  22:45 

I was just thinking join the conversation too much. Actually, I kind of was gonna go back to transport because we spoke about the motorways puts specifically in Dublin, because it's a growing city they're talking about and they have been talking about a long time about extending the Dart and then the tram out to the airport. Is there anything when you look at that particular city that you think I've got a good idea for that or what's missing,

Liam Prendiville  23:13 

I think they're on a good journey, I think, a good good bit down the road, I think the phone the folders, probably the key to public transport. For me anyway. Because you can see, you get access immediately to where public transport is. And if the boss is going to be at your stop in five minutes, you can see it. And that changes the game completely for me, you know. So the frequency of buses now. I'm fortunate enough, I live close to the M 11. Quality bus corridor we did work on on that bus corridor 20 years ago. And bus frequency is so high that you just rock up at the bus stop and get the next bus get into town just as fast are faster than I can drive it. So I think everyone will convert to public transport. Now. There are weak spots, maybe in the network. But there's a lot of work being done out of the box connects. And obviously the loose is a success story. We're doing a nice project on the loose actually. We're working on an extension from bluebridge to Thingol. And that will bring you up to the 50 on the green line. Obviously, the Metro is a big project that's that's out there as well.

Dusty Rhodes  24:26 

How's that Lewis project going? Because you're going through some very highly populated areas. That's

Liam Prendiville  24:31 

it's gone really well. Yeah, it's called fantastically T IO drunk driving the project. We have a team in conjunction with a company called Aegis. We're a French rail company. And the project is what we now call a BIM project. Okay, so, BIM is going from ink ink and paper was in the 80s and 80s and moving towards computers plotters. And five years time, we won't even mention the fact that it's been but if it is an interesting development of design, because you can actually see, you can see conflicts are a preliminary design stage rather than a detailed design stage of much more information much earlier on. So it should improve cost efficiency on construction? Or will, whether it's a higher level of design at an earlier stage,

Dusty Rhodes  25:26 

are you using an existing rail track that is going out towards Fingal? Or do you have to create a new one? A new one? Is that a big headache?

Liam Prendiville  25:38 

It's challenging. Yeah, it's a challenge. But I suppose a lot of schemes that were involved in certainly linear schemes, like road schemes or public transport schemes, once you're on a new route, you're interacting with a lot of stakeholders, you're impacting on a lot of people's property, and we have a relationship with our own property with private property. It goes back to what you discussed earlier. We have a lot of strong property rights. I'm not arguing against that.

Dusty Rhodes  26:05 

What was that that'd be for somebody else to worry about.

Liam Prendiville  26:07 

But it's all about, it's all about bringing a project through the process. You know, I suppose if there was a challenge, in the process at the moment is probably getting planning can be can be a challenge, the planning process is challenged. But again, it's a process. Yeah, you just have to go through and get there. Let me ask you about engineers,

Dusty Rhodes  26:30 

Ireland, because it's a great organization, that it's not companies that are that make up the organization, its people. And it's interesting to me to see that even people have the highest levels of business in the country, our members. I'm just wondering, what's one of the most useful things that you personally have gotten out of being with engineers Ireland.

Liam Prendiville  26:54 

Years ago, I would have been involved as I said earlier in some of the international work, and we did some work in in Bosnia. And engineers Ireland invited me to do a paper which I did in conjunction with guys from the SBI. And that drove me in a certain direction as well. It's not something that I would naturally hold my hand up for back in 1990. Odd. But that opened up an avenue for me in describing what we were doing, the benefits of market return, informing other people of the potential for us to sell things overseas.

Dusty Rhodes  27:31 

Liam Prendiville. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today on the podcast.

Liam Prendiville  27:36 

docilely. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.

Dusty Rhodes  27:38 

If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast today, you'll find notes and link details in the show notes or description area of the podcast in the podcast player right now. Of course, you'll find more information and advanced episodes on our website at engineers Ireland Dudley. Our engineers at journal amplified podcast is produced by dust pod.io for engineers ireland? If you'd like more episodes, just click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. Until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes, thank you so much for listening.

Unknown Speaker  28:13 

Take care.

AMPLIFIED: Liam Prendiville, MD at JB Barry & Partners

The promise of renewables is exploding globally and engineering entrepreneurs like our guest on this episode of AMPLIFIED are right at the heart of the action!

Recently named an EY International Entrepreneur of the Year finalist, Jamie O’Rourke is sharing his perspective as CEO of Mainline Group, the leading utility solutions provider at the centre of the boom in solar, wind and other burgeoning green technologies. He’s touting the benefits of ongoing professional development, networking organisations and global partnerships to innovate and integrate transformational change.

Learn about Mainline’s latest projects in Ireland as well as exciting ventures based in Sweden, the UK and other countries at the forefront of innovation. Jamie also shares thoughts about the role of project management in large, complicated infrastructure schemes (such as the one Mainline has undertaken at Dublin Airport) as well as the hurdles engineering teams inevitably face in the field.

The work can be challenging and the pace of change swift, but Jamie sees renewables as a huge opportunity for engineers to be part of the solution to environmental sustainability. “If we want to go to the extreme,” he says, “engineers will save the world, one wind turbine at a time!”

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Topics we discussed include:

  • The path less travelled: How Jamie’s early experience working in newly post-apartheid South Africa thrust him into positions of responsibility and a steep learning curve.
  • Why Mainline identified renewables early on as a sector that offered tremendous upside growth and a positive way to contribute.
  • Colourful challenges faced on a massive drainage project in Cork that involved large-scale upgrades to water and sewer infrastructure and engineering solutions to accommodate multiple site challenges.
  • Encounters on projects such as an enormous 73-turbine wind farm – the materials, the logistics, weather impacts, design, technical, installation and other specialised expertise required.
  • Growth in solar panels, green hydrogen production and other cutting-edge technologies in Ireland,  whose viability and accessibility are growing “by leaps and bounds” here.
  • The complex cabling and electrical infrastructure that Mainline has engineered for the North Runway project at Dublin Airport – and other large public efforts.
  • Why project management skills, a CDP credential and the constant professional development fostered at Engineers Ireland are critical components of the successful engineer’s tool kit.
  • Jamie shares his networking strategy, which starts with looking for ways to bring value to others and a willingness to be vulnerable, reach out and ask for help.

Guest details

As Chief Executive Officer, Jamie has overseen the growth of Mainline into a key industry provider in the renewable energy and engineering sectors. Jamie’s focus is on delivering quality projects that matter, via the safest means, in support of Mainline customers across various geographies. He is also responsible for Business Development and delivery of Mainline’s ambitious growth strategy.

Jamie was appointed CEO in 2020, after nine years as Managing Director. Having started with Mainline in 2002 as Commercial Manager, on the Cork Main Drainage Project, Jamie progressed to National Operations Manager. He previously worked with Pearse Construction, and Bord Gáis, as well as spending four years with Insitu-Pipelines in South Africa as Operations Manager. Jamie holds Bachelor Degrees in Mathematics and Civil Engineering from Trinity College Dublin and is a Member of Engineers Ireland, as well as a Deloitte Best Managed Company CEO, and an EY Entrepreneur of the Year Finalist.

Operating in Ireland, the UK and Scandinavia, Mainline provides a wide range of services from the Design & Build of Sub-stations, to construction of Airside Aviation Infrastructure, to Turn-key Wind & Solar Energy Solutions.

Mainline has a robust corporate management structure, underpinned by ISO 45001, 14001, 9001 and cyber essentials accreditations as well as the Platinum Member Deloitte Best Managed Company status.

Contact details

https://mainline.ie/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-o-rourke-4298301/

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programmes and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/

Transcription Text

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate automated transcript of the podcast.

Dusty Rhodes  0:02  
Right now on amplified the engineers journal podcast, we meet the CEO of mainline group, Jamie O'Rourke,

Jamie O'Rourke  0:08  
engineers take concepts, and they bring them to reality that can be putting pipelines in the ground connecting up new houses, or at the other end of the scale space travel. That's what engineers do.

Dusty Rhodes  0:41  
Hello, there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to the engineers Ireland podcast where we speak with our community of creative professionals across the country, about how engineers are delivering sustainable solutions for society both now and in the future to come. Today, we're chatting with the CEO of mainline group who have had huge success in the design and build of substations, aviation, infrastructure and renewable energy among many, many other projects. Before joining mainline, our guest has worked everywhere from Pierce construction and board Ghosh to institchu. Pa pipelines in South Africa and is currently an EY Entrepreneur of the Year finalists. It is a pleasure to welcome the CEO of mainline group, Jamie O'Rourke. How are you?

Jamie O'Rourke  1:24  
I'm great dusty. Great to be here. Thank you.

Dusty Rhodes  1:27  
It's always great to hear about somebody's career abroad. How did you end up in South Africa?

Jamie O'Rourke  1:34  
Yeah, back back in the late 90s. After graduating from college, I worked with Pierce contracting for a couple of years, I suppose the opportunity deechi feet, like a lot of people after a year or two, maybe out of college or some people go direct from college after graduating as a civil engineer and Trinity in 95. Seems like a long time ago. Now, as I said, it did a year and a half, nearly two years with peers. And then it was couple of my friends heading to Australia and another friend of mine had got a job offer in South Africa. And we decided to go for the path less traveled. And then when I went, got a job within secure pipelines, pretty much straightaway small Irish expat community down there. I was there for nearly four years had a great time. It was it was an eye opening experience, to put it mildly, South African, the late 90s, just coming out of apartheid, and all of that kind of stuff. So it was a very exciting place to be and you've got in that kind of an environment, you've got responsibility trust upon you. You know, I was relatively young. And early in my career. And I learned a huge amount. One of my first mentors, I suppose, throughout my career place was was the CEO down there of in situ pipelines. And I ended up managing a lot of the commercial and contractual operational aspects of the business for him and got a got a great and broad experience.

Dusty Rhodes  2:50  
So what was the project that you're working on? What was the actual work? It was

Jamie O'Rourke  2:54  
there was varying projects, many of them involved bringing water and sewerage infrastructure to allow the new townships that were being built, as part of you know, I suppose the investment into many areas that had been deprived of investment for for many years prior to that. So it was very much infrastructural, your pipeline, infrastructure, water and sewer, obviously, to have the basic, I suppose human needs to have those kinds of facilities. And yeah, I met a lot of interesting people and had a had a great time learnt a lot down there. And I suppose it came to a point in in late kind of 99 and into 2000, where I had an opportunity to stay under long term or, you know, maybe come back home and the drive home kind of pulled me back a bit and ended up in court working with Borg, gosh, initially, love that had a great time there, great organization. And ultimately, then it got an opportunity to go back into the contracting side of it probably, which is kind of more the side of of construction, that I'm probably more comfortable and more natural. In 2000. I moved to cork and I've been here since then I started working very, very shortly after board, gosh, in 2002, started working with a company called Morrison. And ultimately, that company is now mainline after we affected a management buyout in 2011.

Dusty Rhodes  4:12  
So listen, tell me about mainline engineering them. Yeah. So

Jamie O'Rourke  4:15  
we established in 1999. Originally, before I got involved, a company was set up and worked primarily in the telecoms industry and grew into the UK. Very shortly after that, it was bought out by by Morris and the company I mentioned earlier, and I got involved in the commercial side on on a number of projects, mostly on the water side, but they branched into the water side of the business and we were working on the current main drainage project back in the kind of 2002 to 2006 timeline and ultimately we retained that water and I suppose expertise and the telecom expertise and then we've also branched subsequently into the electrical side the MV HV medium voltage, high voltage side of electrical infrastructure that happened in 2015 when we bought a small power business. At the time, obviously, renewables was gathering momentum. And it's an area we wanted to get into. So we identified that as an opportunity many years ago. And we worked hard at this. And we've built ourselves up now to be one of the main players in that MV HV space in Ireland. And indeed, we've had some international success as well.

Dusty Rhodes  5:20  
So just to give us an indication of the size of the company, roughly, what's the turnover and how many people are working for you?

Jamie O'Rourke  5:25  
Yes, we'd have a turnover in excess of about 30 million per annum, and direct staff of inaccessible 100 100 people. And then you'd have subcontractors and indirect people employed as well.

Dusty Rhodes  5:37  
When you first started working with mainline one of your first big jobs was the cork main drainage project, the one from 2002. What are your own memories of that job?

Jamie O'Rourke  5:47  
That was a very challenging job. Because you've got a very high tide level water level, it's naturally high in Cork. And this was in the the island element of cork, if you're familiar with the geography of Cork city. So the river splits and creates a little island in the middle. And we we were doing one half of that island and putting all of the again similar to my time in South Africa, we were putting upgrading the water and sewer infrastructure because prior to that, a lot of the sewer, which I believe it went straight into the river. So there was a major investment infrastructurally to put in large pipes that intercepted all of those kind of flows into the river and took them off down to little island to a new treatment plant aspect we were doing was pretty much gathering it from the houses intercepting it and then feeding it into those those big outfile sewers. You know, to give you an example, one of the challenging elements of that was we had to go down over Plunkett Street, which again, if you're familiar with it is a fairly narrow street in Cork busy pedestrian street, three and four storey high buildings, eight to 10 meters apart, and we had to put in a six meter deep pipe and you know, originally there was a plan to open quarters and we had some issues, the structures in that part of the car, the buildings are very old. Some of them are you know, less structurally sound and others. So you had all of those kinds of challenges and to manage so we ultimately engineered a solution, you know, where we what we call directionally drilled a large diameter two foot diameter 600 mil diameter pipe, and we drilled sank shafts intermittently along the along Oliver Plunkett Street and drilled from shaft to shaft. So, we didn't have to excavate that had the benefit of reducing I suppose the disturbances to you know, the level of disruption to the local business, etc. So that's one example. Another one was the original, an old outfall sewers, which are going back to Victorian times, you know, we had to uncover those and access them and and there's complications around that from breathing apparatus and everything else health and safety aspects. And then we had to go in and kind of repair those old, very old Victorian old fall sores as well. Some aspects of that that was on the Grand Parade again, a much wider street, but a very busy street at the same time. So they're kind of some of the some of the memories I have another one was we thank you shaft, it's all coming back to me now. We thank you shaft again from Microtonic on Washington Street, and we uncovered some remains of Viking infrastructure, housing or whatever. I forget the particulars. Now, it seems like no, I know the detail a bit better to stage but we have to let the archaeologists in for for several weeks to do their thing. It's all coming back. I'm gonna ask that question in a while.

Dusty Rhodes  8:27  
Nowadays, of course, mainline is growing in the UK, as you said, it went in fairly quick and more recently into the Swedish market. What Why Sweden,

Jamie O'Rourke  8:37  
I suppose, you know, a lot a lot of companies when they when they go international, they follow clients, people they've you know, and businesses, they've got relationships with, it's all about relationships, we had an opportunity to price a large project in Sweden with a with an existing client. We did that. And I suppose we got in early, we looked at all of the different options, we tried to value engineer the solution as part of their wider project scope. How could we integrate what we were delivering with other parts of the project they had to they had to deliver an example would be around the roads, were being built by the civils contractor, and we then have to excavate a trench and lay our cable we had up to 90 kilometers of electrical cable to install adjacent to the road, you need special, specific quality of backfill material. And if we could, you know if that material was processed as part of the road construction, it would reduce the cost for us as an example in delivery of our project. And so we looked at the doors kind of aspects, and you know, how we could work together with the client to deliver the most economically advantageous solution quite often and it's very much part of our strategies and organization. We try to sit down with the clients as early as possible, understand the big picture and where we can bring value and maybe make savings if if x y and Zed are done, you know out in advance of our works as an example. So yeah, so we got the opportunity And we talked about we delivered a 73, turbine wind farm. And the electrical aspect of it now I should say, the geographical area, just to give you a sense of it was was nearly the size, a county load, that the logistics of getting around and moving material around and getting huge volumes of cable to the right parts of site and all of that kind of stuff. And then you throw in the added complication of you know, potentially waking up in the morning, and there's two meters of snow in front of you, you know, so you have all of those things, and we're very good local partner as well, you know, with that kind of local weather knowledge and know how, because a lot of the civil aspect of our, you know, the digging of the trench, we got a local partner on board to deliver that element for us. And then we brought the design and the technical and installation of the cable expertise. So yeah, it's all about getting the right people around the table and getting the right partners in delivering a project.

Dusty Rhodes  10:47  
There's a lot of talk in Ireland about wind energy, is it the same in Sweden? Are they are they even more into it? There?

Jamie O'Rourke  10:54  
They are, is the simple answer. I suppose there's huge focus now internationally on on renewable energy generation, I suppose the momentum that was gathering prior to the war in Ukraine, and I suppose if there is one silver lining to that cloud, is that it is increased focus on renewable renewables and renewable generation to obviously reduce our dependence on gas and simple farms. I was looking at a report there yesterday and 40% of our electricity production in recent years was was reliant on gas. Clearly, we've got an exposure there, we all know. So yes, Sweden is hugely focused on renewables, again, no different to Ireland, they're very focused on the, the offshore opportunities there as well. And in northern Sweden, where we work, they've got huge areas of land with a strong electrical infrastructure. And by that, I mean, the electrical infrastructure that is required to take the power that is generated in a wind farm and bring it into the national and international grid. Because a lot of the time where the wind is or where the power is generated, and where the wind is blowing isn't where it has the greatest need no different to Ireland, the wind blows more on the West Coast, and it doesn't east coast. But power is needed more so on the east coast. So you have to have that electrical infrastructure to transfer the energy around the country. And Sweden has that they've got a very good electrical infrastructure Ireland has, you know, we've a lot of work to do on that. And, you know, it's it's in hand, but plenty more still to be done on that.

Dusty Rhodes  12:23  
What is it that you've seen, the Swedes do that we could learn here in Ireland,

Jamie O'Rourke  12:27  
I suppose one of the one of the main challenges that a lot of people talk about in Ireland is the timeline it takes to get a project from concept to completion. And a lot of that is around the planning process on the offshore side does talk about, you know, the foreshore license aspects, etc. And that needs to be streamlined in Sweden, it is more streamlined. Now. They also have some other challenges. And they're actively looking at some challenges in that regard. And they're actively looking to address those. They've got their neighbors next door in Norway, who are probably, you know, one of the most advanced in the renewables space, I suppose. And, you know, they see the benefit. It's in very high in the public persona, shall we say,

Dusty Rhodes  13:10  
when it comes to renewable energy, wind is the one that we hear about the most. But what are the other areas of sustainable energy that are available and the perhaps we should consider

Jamie O'Rourke  13:21  
solar is a big one, Ireland has only just recently, I suppose, put the support mechanism in place to incentivize the construction of solar farms on an industrial scale, raise one auction and raise to auction results that have happened. Just to explain that raise is the Renewable Energy Support Scheme. It's the program basically, of supports that the government have in place for both wind and solar, because they still need to be subsidized to an extent by by doing that, by subsidizing those, you know, solar projects and wind projects, they become ultimately self sufficient, because you bring the expertise when the expertise are local, and they're there and the market is significant in volume and size and scale, price of materials and everything come down. And you ultimately get to a point, which is coming very quickly. Now, given the cost of electricity is a result of external forces that we spoke about earlier. You know, you get to that balancing point where they will need to be subsidized. But initially, all of these developing technologies need to be subsidized to make them commercially viable. And it's no different to the offshore side of it as well, because there's huge investments involved but the benefits once they're up and running, and the markets mature, in order just enormous. One of

Dusty Rhodes  14:33  
the things about engineering is seeing a challenge and coming up with a solution overcoming it and making it a reality. I hear the word solar power, and I hear the words Ireland and I think that's got to be a challenge.

Jamie O'Rourke  14:48  
Well, I suppose the panels are getting very technically advanced. So nowadays, they even have a double sided panels to pick up the light on the underside, would you believe so? You've done aspects to I suppose consider And if you look at the southern part of Ireland, we get about 1000 sun hours per annum, which is very similar to large parts of Europe, you know, solar, the solar in Scotland. Estonia is one of the international markets we're looking at. It's in its early stages, and they've been through their first kind of auction to support solar. You know, you think of Estonia, you don't necessarily think solar eyler either sorry. But the technology and I suppose the ability of the panels to generate electricity is it's coming on in leaps and bounds. So yeah, it's it's very much a viable option in the Irish market. Other ones, you asked me what other areas that there are, one of the big issues with renewables is the fact that you know, when the wind blows, you create electricity when it doesn't blow, you know, there's no electricity being generated. And and sometimes that is surplus to requirements and doesn't get used. Green hydrogen is an area where, you know, engineering can play a huge part in has, if we can harness that excess wind, when it's blowing, use it to create hydrogen that can then be stored and used to generate electricity. When the wind isn't blowing, you've got your 24 hour cycle of electricity generation covered us. Where does engineering fit into all of this, you know, we're saving the world, one wind turbine at a time or one solar panel at a time. So, you know, you can put that kind of extent of spin on it, because climate change is a huge issue. And, you know, Ireland has a target of generating 80% of its electricity from renewables by 2030. You know, we've a good way to go to get there, we can do it. You know, the t shirt said recently, that wind could be our oil, you know, if we can harness the wind off the west coast here, I'm sitting here on the west coast as I talk to you, and it's blowing hard in the middle of middle of July. So there's huge opportunity out there and engineers will be part of that solution. And, you know, if we want to go to the extreme engineers will, will save the world one one wind turbine at a time.

Dusty Rhodes  16:59  
Moving away from renewable energy, one of main lines of recent projects was the new North runway at Dublin Airport. Now, a lot of people may be familiar in this business with road or motorway construction runways kind of different. What What have you discovered in this project?

Jamie O'Rourke  17:16  
Yeah, well, I suppose we've we've worked over many years with the DA. And we've done a lot of projects in Dublin, cork, and Shannon airports, we deal primarily in the electrical infrastructure, the runway lights, the taxiway signage, the navigation aids, that helped the planes land, all of that kind of stuff. The particular scope that we delivered on the north runway was into the main contractor who constructed the runway and a lot of the infrastructure, the docks, etc, we would pull the cables in, and we delivered to substations as well to power all of that infrastructure. So it's very different to a road in this road has very, as no electrical infrastructure, better street lights, or whatever. So the electrical infrastructure here is obviously the critical aspects of the overall project from a safety perspective, and the navigation aids that go with that to help the planes land, you know, and approach the runway, at the correct altitude, etc, hugely different to erode,

Dusty Rhodes  18:14  
to give us an idea of the scale of it. And also, the concentration of runway may be three, three kilometers long, 3000 meters

Jamie O'Rourke  18:24  
3.3 3.3. And in the case of the North runway, I think there would have been over 2000 runway lights as an example. You know, you've got communications, as well as the electrical infrastructure, you've got the fiber communication infrastructure, as well, we had hundreds of kilometers of electric cable and fiber, you've got the primary cable, which is the higher voltage stuff, you've got the secondary cable, which is the lower voltage stuff, you know, going from each individual light back to the primary cable source, I'm getting into the technical aspects a little bit, which I should never do, because I'm a civil engineer, and I'm not an electrical engineer, so I could put my foot in it literally, but, you know, huge volumes of cabling infrastructure to connect everything up. And you're obviously in a runway as well, you have to have significant levels of redundancy for light bulb goes off, can't take them all out clearly. You know, that's that's a fairly basic example. But you get the point, as

Dusty Rhodes  19:18  
well as the scale of it in such a small area while you're doing it. Number one is you're working in a very highly secure area and then number two, there must be a billion factors outside of your control, how do you manage as an engineer with such a fluid situation?

Jamie O'Rourke  19:36  
Yeah, very good question. And the project management aspect of engineering is a very important part of delivering any project. And if you have a clear, sufficiently detailed program resource to properly detailing the interfaces that you have with other contractors, they have to hand over times from you know, the dissection of the runway is going to be built and and finished and it can be handed over to mainline at a particular point in time. You know, program management is very much a critical part of minimizing the the margin for error issue on a project. When programs aren't managed properly, then you've got, then you've got big problems. You know, it's very much the program management aspect of it.

Dusty Rhodes  20:21  
Now away from a particular project, one of the things we talk about on the podcast is CPD accredited employer with engineers, Ireland, how important do you feel CPD is to an engineers career?

Jamie O'Rourke  20:32  
Well, I mean, I'll go a bit more general, we should all be looking to improve. We were saying in mainline, what got us here won't get us there, in the sense that, you know, we're learning every day, and we can't keep doing the same thing. You've we've all got to evolve and engineers, no different. You know, we've a program and the engineers, Ireland, when we were delighted to be part of it, it's very important that the people continuously strive. And it's an important part of our strategies and organization. So all of our people, it's something we look for and identify in our people, they've got to want to improve, our environments are changing all the time, we've all got to improve, we've all got to continuously look to improve the framework that we have with engineers, Ireland, it's engineer specific, it brings, I suppose, a lot of the moving parts of, you know, engineering, project management, all of that kind of stuff together, very much focused on project delivery. You know, so we find it very beneficial for for mainline Yeah.

Dusty Rhodes  21:28  
Now it's one thing you sitting at the top of mainline Canada, our people this and our people that everybody should learn. What about you, yourself, what's one of the most useful things that you have gotten from being an engineers, Ireland,

Jamie O'Rourke  21:41  
for me, there are very few problems in this world that somebody hasn't solved already, or had to face and you know, has, has thought about all of the options. And throughout my career, the benefit of networking, I can't, you know, overemphasize it enough. And you know, the, the network within engineers, Ireland, you can pick up the phone, and people are always willing to help I find, you know, and somebody has been there and done it. And that's the important thing to remember, you're not you're never, you're never facing it alone. And the strength of the network, and the level of advice and expertise within that network is invaluable. And then this comes down to the very basic, you know, mental health issues, or any of those kinds of things, it all comes down to that level, I'm not just talking about engineering issues. There's always somebody out there who's, who's who's been through what you're going through. And there's a solution out there. And it's very important to remember that,

Dusty Rhodes  22:33  
let me get your view on networking, because networking puzzled me for such a long time. And you may not believe this, but I'm a kind of a shy person. I mean, I picked radio as a career for a reason, because I'm sitting in a room on my own speaking to imaginary people, most of it, so it's perfect. But when it comes to, you know, kind of having to go into a room with there's lots of people that I don't know, or at a conference or something like that, I literally can I hate it. Alright. But I discovered for me, and this is my definition of networking is it's not who you know, it's who you've met. And it's simple as I was up this thing, and that fella was there. And I went up, and I said, Hello, Patti. How are you doing? Yeah, Graham, I am You are lovely to see it goodbye. And it could literally be as short as four minutes. But somewhere in the future, when you need to interact with that person, then you can say I met you briefly at such and such. That's what networking is to me. How would you describe it, for sure.

Jamie O'Rourke  23:30  
You walk into a room and you don't know anybody there. And if you know one person, quite often you tend to gravitate to that person, and you've got to be disciplined and go, alright, I'll talk to three people before I get to that person and the benefit, you never know the benefit of networking, at the point in time that you're doing it, it will become apparent down the road. Similarly, if you go into any those kinds of opportunities are networking opportunities with the mindset of what can I do to help others in the first instance? Right? And, you know, they might have a problem that I can I can solve, or I can, I know the man you can talk to? And you might you might put two other people together? Because if you if you go in with the opposite attitude of what am I going to get out of this, you'll get less. So for me that mindset, and if you win with that people open up and also it's about genuine interaction. You know, if you're, if you've got a problem, and you say, look, I've got a problem. Do you know anybody who could help me people are willing to help. You know, sometimes you put people up on a pedestal and you think that might be too busy or to this or to that people will make the time to help and they just need to be asked a lot of time Never be afraid to ask anybody for help and show a vulnerability. You know, that's genuine and if you're if you're genuine, you know, networking will just happen naturally for you.

Dusty Rhodes  24:43  
That is a superb piece of advice to go in to see how can I help other people that amazing because it just it's like the universe just it just pays you off for doing that. Speaking of professional development, we're recording this before. The EY Entrepreneur of the Year is announced in November but you are final list, I think, what a brilliant way of developing your career and to get into this, do you think the whole process of this award is adding to your own professional development?

Jamie O'Rourke  25:11  
Yes, is the short answer. And I'll tell you why. And it's, it's interesting. You've asked this question after the networking question, I've been at a couple of the events, and the power of that network is, its immense. And one aspect of the program is, you go away for a week on the EY entrepreneur retreat, and you're in an environment with the other 24 finalists, 25 finalists this year, you're in that environment, but you also have many of the past up to up to 100 of the past finalists, you know, collectively, when you put that room together, you know, most problems have been experienced. So if you have a problem, and you're looking for, you know, the solution, it's there, it's in the room, and then the process that you that you go through, and, you know, there's a there's an interview process with the judges and everything else. And, you know, these are highly experienced people, very successful people. And, you know, they're asking questions, they're looking at your business. And then there's other aspects of the dy support as well around strategy development of your business. So it's very much a two way street. And the benefits are, you know, they're significant.

Dusty Rhodes  26:18  
Let me ask you, on a scale of one to 10, how much is this process pushing you

Jamie O'Rourke  26:24  
on a scale of one to 10? How much is it pushing me, it's pushing me outside of my comfort zone, you know, which is always good. You know, I wouldn't necessarily be up in front of the microphone too often, you know, doing this kind of stuff. And there'll be, you know, there'll be a television aspect to the finals, and all of that kind of stuff, which again, I wouldn't necessarily be overly familiar with. And then, you know, like I said, I've got to sit down in front of a panel of very successful, very experienced judges. And, you know, I'll be grilled about our business, and our strategy and everything else. So it's right up there in the, you know, the the eight or nine anyway,

Dusty Rhodes  27:01  
finally, Jamie, tell me what's in your head at the moment for the future for yourself and for mainland.

Jamie O'Rourke  27:07  
I mentioned earlier, you know, we're currently at about 20 million turnover, we want to grow the business to in excess of 100 million turnover in the in the medium term. And I mean, three to five years in the, in the medium term, we've got a lot of the blocks in place for that. We've got a very good team. And we've got a very strong senior management team. So from a strategy perspective, and I suppose a numbers perspective, that's where we want to go, renewables is a huge part of that focus. And solar now is very much taking off in the Irish market. Wind has always been there, and is now again, very much part of our focus offshore is coming online, late 23, maybe into 2024. So therefore, the route, the timeline would very much I suppose we're engaged with the players who are delivering those clients or delivering those projects. So you don't start at an early stage. You've got other projects around the grid strengthening ESB are a very important client of ours. And the strengthening of the infrastructure within Ireland to be able to deliver and transport that power around the country is a huge part of the huge piece of the jigsaw to us, hitting our 2030 target of 80%. You know, renewably generated power. There are projects as well that fit into that grid strengthening mix around the interconnection of Ireland to the UK, with the green link, which is a power a power cable, going from Wexford to Wales. You've got the Celtic interconnector that's coming in from France and hitting the cork Waterford border, there's a huge drive and focus on renewables and grid strengthening. And we see that very much as part of our growth strategy. We'd like to think we're very well positioned to deliver it.

Dusty Rhodes  28:52  
Well, I wish you the very best of luck with all of that. And I'd like to thank you today for giving me being so insightful and open as well with us. Jamie O'Rourke, thank you for joining us on the podcast.

Jamie O'Rourke  29:04  
Thank you very much dusty, it was a pleasure.

Dusty Rhodes  29:06  
If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast today, you'll find notes and link details in the shownotes or description area of our podcast on your podcast player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and advanced episodes on our website at engineers ireland.ie. Our podcast today was produced by dustpod.io for engineers, Ireland and if you would like more just click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. On the next one. Thank you so much for listening

AMPLIFIED: Jamie O’Rourke, CEO Mainline Group

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