Engineers are incredibly innovative and ambitious, but having the right skills and mindset is key to having your ideas heard and supported.

Through self-development and continuous learning you can make yourself stand out in the crowd. Today we find out what education options are available to engineers and what skills you need to focus on to become an invaluable pi-shaped professional.

Our expert today is an electronic engineer who is incredibly passionate about professional development and learning. She is the former Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies and current Director of UL@Work at University of Limerick, Professor Ann Ledwith.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Things we spoke about

01:09 Ann’s Start In Engineering

05:03 How to make an impression and progress

09:19 Transversal Skills and becoming a pi-shaped professional

13:27 The difference between management and leadership

16:20 Advice for young engineers pursuing leadership

18:13 Business-oriented skills for engineering

20:30 How to approach continued learning

21:54 Further education opportunities with UL@Work

24:50 Learning time commitment and workplace support

Guest details

Professor Ann Ledwith is a graduate of N.I.H.E Limerick where she obtained a degree in Electronic Engineering.  She subsequently completed an MBA at the University of Limerick and a PhD in Managing Product Development at the University of Brighton. She has held a variety of positions at UL including Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies, Director of Continuing and Professional Education, and Assistant Dean of Research (Adult and Continuing Education) with the Faculty of Science and Engineering.

Currently Prof Ledwith is the Director of HCI and UL@Work, and is responsible for delivering UL’s Human Capital Initiative project, UL@Work, which aims to develop digital, industry 4.0, talent through flexible, innovative and technology-enabled, experiential learning; linking enterprise and education to form a co-designed future learning environment.  She is passionate about the role of the university in supporting regional growth and currently chairs Explore Engineering, an industry-led initiative to  increase the quality and quantity of engineering talent (apprentice, technicians and engineers) in the region.

Prof Ledwith worked for over twelve years as a Product Development Engineer and as a Manager of Product Development in small high-technology firms.  She spent 2 years managing the Centre for Project Management at the University of Limerick.  Professor Ledwith has a keen interest in work-based students and flexible learning. Throughout her academic career, she has designed and delivered part-time and blended programmes for both under- and post-graduate students on topics such as Project Management, Entrepreneurship, Innovation Management, Technology Management and Reliability.  Her research interests include new product development, project management, R&D management, innovation and technology management in small firms.

Website: www.ul.ie

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ann-ledwith-65873a/

Further education links:

https://www.ul.ie/gps/professionalflexible-programmes

https://www.ul.ie/gps/microcredentials

https://www.ul.ie/gps/springboard-courses

https://www.ul.ie/gps/professionalflexible-programmes/apprenticeships

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/ 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

Quotes

You have to be willing to step up, you have to be willing to say, ‘Yeah, I can take charge of this project, or I can manage a few people.’ - Ann Ledwith

When you're working with people, you need a certain amount of single mindedness and focus, but you also need to be able to bring your people along with you, you need to appreciate and listen to what people are saying. You need to have a vision, you need to be able to communicate that vision, and you need to be able to convince people that's where they want to be as well. - Ann Ledwith

We often talk about a pi-shaped professional, you need these broad skills along the top, and then your areas of expertise. You need both if you want to be successful. - Ann Ledwith

I think that sense of having a vision of how you want to move things forward is very important, but that's useless unless you can bring people with you - Ann Ledwith

It is so important for job satisfaction that people can see that they've contributed to something. I think that's why people follow leaders because they feel that it's adding more meaning and more relevance to what they're doing. - Ann Ledwith

The first thing is to let people know you're there and to let people know that you do have ambition. Very often that's the toughest step for a young engineer, we're not taught to go forward and to share your ideas like that. But I think it's very important that you make sure people realize that the potential that you have - Ann Ledwith

One of the key things if you are getting on that journey of continuous education is to get the support from your manager. Tell them how this program is actually going to progress you, it's not just that you're getting skills, but your company is getting skills - Ann Ledwith

Transcription

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes 00:00

In your engineering career, do you want to be a manager or leader? And what's the difference? We're about to find out.

Ann Ledwith 00:07

When you get into leadership, you have a vision, you're able to say, well, this is how I think things should be. First, that's useless, unless you can bring people with you.

Dusty Rhodes 00:21

Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes, and welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal podcast. Most successful engineers agree that continuous learning is paramount to a successful and progressive career in engineering. But when innovation and technology are moving at such a rapid pace today, it can feel overwhelming to keep up. So today, we're going to find out what further education options are available to engineers and what skills you can develop to help move yourself forward and upwards in your career. Our guest today is incredibly passionate about professional development and learning. She is the former Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies and the current director of UL@Work, at the University of Limerick, Ann Ledwith. Thank you very much for joining us on the podcast. Thank you. So listen, tell me Ann you're a big advocate for careers in engineering. How did you get into this business? How did you know it was the right path for you?

Ann Ledwith 01:18

I suppose it was a bit serendipitous when I was at school and ended up breaking desolations in Limerick, we didn't have physics and I decided I wanted to do physics. So about four of us had to go to the local Christian Brothers school that was just across the road to do physics. And up to probably the end of fifth year, I was going to be a dentist, I'd probably be a lot richer if I was a dentist but who knows I wouldn't be happier. But all the boys were going to physics, we're all going to do engineering. So I said, and I was good at physics, I was good at math and those types of subjects. And I said, Well, if they're going to be engineers, then I should be an engineer too. So to be honest, it wasn't a career that had ever entered my mind. Until I heard my classmates talking about the classmates and my physics class talking about it. Now he's helped that we have a passionate female physics teacher as well, that was very, very supportive. But that's where I decided to do engineering. And at the time, and he, as it was then was just starting, they had a very good program in electronic engineering. And that's where I ended up with quite a few of my colleagues from our physics class, Limerick as well.

Dusty Rhodes 02:30

So when you got out into the real world, what kind of engineering work were you doing?

Ann Ledwith 02:34

Well, I did electronic engineering, and I worked for a while with analog devices, I moved to Germany on a contract for about a year. And then I came back to Limerick and worked with a company called Interpro. As a design engineer and an entrepreneur, we were designing automatic test equipment for power supplies. So I was involved in hardware, and software firmware, and worked there for about seven, eight years, it was a small company, it was a startup, a great place for an engineer to start. Because I think in a smaller company like that, you're exposed to everything you're exposed to how sales work, how orders are fulfilled, how manufacturing happens. And I felt that was a really, really good start and foundation for my career in engineering. And that's where I started to get opportunities for leadership as well. Again, in a smaller company, I started being the manager of our software development and ended up being the R&D manager in the company. So I was looking after all of our development. But I suppose at that stage, I knew the business inside out, I had been there for a good number of years and knew everybody involved. So it was a very interesting and very kind of exciting time.

Dusty Rhodes 03:44

I liked the way you say that you went into management. And you mentioned leadership because the two are almost completely different things. And it's something I want to delve into a little later. But looking back at your engineering career, what would you say is the one thing that you're most proud of?

Ann Ledwith 04:00

Oh, that's, that's a hard one. Because I moved, my career changed quite a bit. So while I was at Interpro, I was very proud. We developed a new system, a new test system, I was responsible for developing the software and how the software looked, and also for developing some of the hardware modules on that. And it was definitely very rewarding to see the equipment in use in companies to see, you know, something that you were able to step back and say, Well, I designed that, you know, and it's part of a production for and there were maybe four or five of these things lined up churning through power supplies, testing them, and you can kind of say, well, well, I did that. That was me. So I think that's one of the things that's great about engineering is that we make things and very often when you make things you can see the things that you made, and you can see them working and people using them. And whether it's something else kind of mundane as a piece of test equipment, or a new bridge or you know, a new mobile device or whatever it is but we make things and we make things that work and I That's one of the things that I really love about a career in engineering.

Dusty Rhodes 05:03

So one of the things that I do want to chat about a little bit later is management and leadership because there's a huge difference between them. But can I start by asking you about your own journey kind of moving from the shop floor as it were into management and into leadership? Then how does somebody move upwards in a business? What steps should they take?

Ann Ledwith 05:23

Like, I guess, to a certain extent, it's different depending on the business you're in, like I was in a small company, and I was willing to take on the responsibility, I think that's an awful lot of it, that you have to be willing to step up, you have to be willing to say, Yeah, I can take charge of this project, or I can manage a few people. And that's not for everybody. But I think, you know, if you have a bit of ambition, and if you like to, my I hate to say if you're a bit of a control freak, like you like to determine the outcome of things, and I think an awful lot of engineers do, like you don't like things to just happen to you, you like to have some control over what's happening to you and how systems are developed and, and how you make decisions. You know, in my case, it was in how we were developing our software. And I actually ended up having some quite strong views about that, because of how our system was configured and how I felt it should work. And we'd be better to move to something that was more modular. And it's by deciding that you want to take ownership, I think it's an awful lot of where you're at that you have to decide, I can do this, I will step up and do it. And to look at the other people around you and think, look, I can do at least as good a job as they can do. So why not me? But I think maybe two things have to happen. One is that your company has to appreciate you and be willing to promote you. And by and large, people are happy to prod people who want to do the work. But I think an awful lot of it has to come internally from you, as an engineer, that you're saying, Yes, I'm willing to take this step forward. Yes, it's not beyond me to decide, I'm not just going to implement a design what I'm being asked to design, but I actually want to be more involved in making those decisions and directing what's happening and have more control over where our product or technology or whatever else it is, is going.

Dusty Rhodes 07:07

There is a world of difference in designing something and controlling that thing, as you say, and then controlling people, which is the team. But there are similar two skills at the same time. So what kind of skills do you think are important for progression in that way?

Ann Ledwith 07:21

Like, I think of the two, it's controlling the people and managing the people that number one is actually what's critical to making projects happen. And is something that's more difficult. And I think it is something that comes a little bit more with age, you need a bit of experience and a bit of maturity before you can start to manage other people and bring them along. That's my opinion on it. I think you need a lot of empathy. When you're working with people, you need a certain amount of kind of single-mindedness and focus. But you also need to be able to bring your people along with you, you need to appreciate and listen to what people are saying. But you need to have a vision, you need to be able to communicate that vision. And you need to be able to convince people, that's where they want to be as well. But they are two different skill sets. And of the two I'd say the one that takes a bit longer to develop is the people management and the people management skills.

Dusty Rhodes 08:16

And where do you learn those skills? Or where do you start learning those skills?

Ann Ledwith 08:20

You start in kindergarten, you know, I often think that how you interact with people starts at the very, very beginning. But it is kind of when you get into your career. And when you start moving forward, I think you just have to observe what's happening around you. Now there are lots of programs that will help. And I know when I was kind of going through that management phase earlier in my career, I did take part in a leadership program. And it was very useful. But an awful lot of the use of being on a program like that is really talking to peers and talking to colleagues and finding what are other people doing and realizing that you know, other people have the same problems as you have heard, and they have different ways of solving them and different ways of going about things. So I think anywhere in my life when I've gone back for additional learning, the learning itself has been useful, but almost more useful is that peer-to-peer learning. And I think that that still holds true in almost any area of kind of upskilling and rescaling is that peer learning can be really, really important. So I think that's a key place where you learn and where you observe what people are doing. 

Dusty Rhodes 09:19

One word I have heard bandied around in relation to this is transversal skills. What exactly are transversal skills?

Ann Ledwith 09:26

They're just a new thing. Know, I think they are a new name for things that we always had to do you know, for things that you gained with experience, but I think they are a very important skill set that we have maybe over the last years started to kind of pigeonhole different people into particular professions and particular skill sets. But yes, when you get out into the workplace, you need to be able to work with people. You need to be able to communicate effectively. You need to be able to manage teams and work in a team. And they're all those kinds of what used to be softer skills and are now more commonly referred to as power skills. But to be honest, you know, way back kind of 1015 years ago, when I was more involved in engineering programs here at UL and getting programs accredited, there were always those learning outcomes that were about managing teams and being aware of society and being aware of the people around you. And making sure that engineers had those skills, as well as having the technical skills, which I think is really, really important. So I think transversal skills are very, very useful, I think they're things that should be part of all of our degrees. And all of our undergraduates should get them, I think, to be honest, are coming to the forum. Now, post COVID, because we've had whatever it is for three, four years, where people have been working in very kind of isolated ways. And it's almost like we've got to bring them back together and teach people how to work with each other and work together. So we often talk about that kind of pie-shaped professional, that you need these broad skills along the top, and then your areas of expertise. But you need both if you want to be successful.

Dusty Rhodes 11:02

That's another phrase that I've heard is T shaped professionals that somebody is somebody brought up at the top. And yeah, when

Ann Ledwith 11:08

I'm saying pie, I'm just putting an extra leg on that T because very often we need somebody who you know, understands it, as well as understanding telecoms, or whether it's very close, or circuit design or, or even medicine, we're seeing so much more of an overlap between an awful lot of these professions that that in areas of biological sciences, medical sciences, that research is really delving into how technology is informing that how AI is informing that. 

Dusty Rhodes 11:39

So you need more than one expertise very often when you're thinking about your career, and you're kind of thinking I want to move on and do something else... engineering related, what kind of opportunities are there for engineers outside of the direct industry itself?

Ann Ledwith 11:52

I take there are a lot of different careers and career paths that engineers can take. That's one of the things that I really like about an engineering degree and would encourage, you know, parents talking to kids to look at engineering, because I think sometimes when you're at the start of it, you think, Well, I'm going to be an engineer, and that's what I'm going to do. But to actually develop a skill set as an engineer, that can apply in an awful lot of different areas. So you would see engineers talk turning up in sales and marketing, in systems an awful lot in education in a lot of different spheres. And I think one of the things that an engineering degree gives you is almost a way of thinking as a systems way of thinking because I find that something that to me an awful lot in my career, that I can look at, you know, a problem or a mess, you know, what, whether it's to do with engineering, whether it's to do with how we're structuring a program at work, or whether it's dealing with another project at work, and I find I can put a structure on it, you know, I can pull the bits of it together that matters. I can say, well, this is how we should do this. This is the way we should put this as a project. And I think it's that kind of high-level systems thinking that engineers are actually quite good at that there is a kind of a way that you think that that's very structured and systematized and you think, well, we're going to do that, and how are we going to measure it? And how will we know? What resources will we need? So you start to think in a far more kind of structured way. And I think that can apply across the board. And that's why you find engineers, very often in management roles in a lot of industries. So they've left behind the engineering, and they're working in kind of general management areas.

Dusty Rhodes 13:27

I think what I hear you saying is engineers are problem solvers. And you know, leadership and management are all about solving problems with teams, we often the arrow of the importance of leadership in engineering, one is the difference between management because lots of people go into management, or very few people become leaders. What is the difference between management and leadership?

Ann Ledwith 13:49

I think one of the key differences is when you get into leadership, you have a vision, and maybe you have visions about several visions, but you have, you know, you're able to say, well, this is how I think things should be. And I was actually thinking about this recently. And that's one thing that I found that the later stages of my career, that I'm actually much more willing to step forward and say, Well, this is where I think you should actually go with this. And this is how it should look in the future. And I think that sense of having a vision that you want to show how you want to move things forward is very important. But that's useless unless you can bring people with you. So I think it's being able to do both of those things. Because we can think of and even within companies, you will get these people who have crazy mad ideas, but nobody listens to them. And that can sometimes be big, it's not necessarily the best thing. But I think if you can bring people along with you on those towards what that vision is, if you can be inclusive in developing how you think you want things to go forward and actually bring things with you. I think that that's the key with leadership is that you can have that vision, but that you could communicate and bring people along with you towards that vision.

Dusty Rhodes 14:58

Then when you are a leader either and you have a vision and you're going for this particular goal to improve the world. And you've got 50 PP behind you. And man, I like the way that guys think I'm going to work with him. Alright, so your leader, how does that kind of leadership improve the quality of work and experience within a company, for the people who were behind you and supporting you?

Ann Ledwith 15:20

Well, I think it gives you I mean, there's a great sense of grace, satisfaction and being part of a team, that that is working towards something and something that's going to improve whether it's improving how we work, improving how we teach, improving what our product looks like. But that is working towards improvement and to feel that you're listened to that you're part of that you're of achieving something, and that you're confident contributing. And I actually think that I mean, that is so important for job satisfaction is that people can see that they've contributed to something that has made an improvement. And I think that's why people would very often follow leaders because they feel that that it adds more meaning it's adding more relevance to what they're doing. And they're actually they're achieving something, as opposed to, you know, the same thing as I did yesterday. And here's what I'm going to be doing next week, and my manager says, I should do it x, y, and z because that's the way the company does it. And I think that's part of the difference. And it's a much more exciting place to be, you know, when you're trying to create something new or do something new.

Dusty Rhodes 16:20

So this is developing really nicely because a leader is somebody who has vision, he's got people who agree with our vision, who are following him, but the leader is also interested in helping the people who are following him, develop themselves. So if I'm sitting here, and I'm an engineer, and I'm kind of thinking this sounds good, I want to get into management, because I've got ideas, I want to change the world in my own way. I mean, how do I start all of the, you know, I'm just working at a desk as a regular engineer, how do you start the journey towards management and leadership?

Ann Ledwith 16:53

So you're sitting at your desk, but where are you? You know, why does your company what are you passionate about? You know, are you designing, you know, a communication system that you think should be done differently and should use a different type of technology? And I think it depends on your context. And I think part of kind of the first thing that you need to do is to step up and to make sure that the people who are working with you, and particularly the people who are senior to you in the company, know that you want to go further, I know that you want to take on a leadership role. And they're aware that you're there. So very often kind of as a junior engineer there, and there's a tendency to keep my head down and get the work done. That's not going to get too far if you want to get involved in leadership. And you don't have to be the person who's shouting for the trees or anything like that. But you do have to be the person who will make sure that their voice is heard, and their opinion is heard. And if you have a good idea, well articulated and share it. So I think the first thing is to let people know you're there and to let people know that you do have ambition. And I think very often that's the toughest step for a young engineer. Because I mean, very often we're not taught to kind of go forward and to share your ideas like that. But I think it's very important that you, you make sure people see you and you make sure people realize the potential that you have.

Dusty Rhodes 18:13

You think if you're going to then go into the leadership side of things that you need to do you need to be business orientated. For that, you have to do a business degree on top of everything else.

Ann Ledwith 18:25

I think that depends, I think in some of the kinds of larger technical companies, they would have a route for leadership on an engineering side that needn't be as involved in the business. But to be honest, I think, really, so if you're in a smaller company, then there is more of a need to have a better idea of where the business is at. But in either case, I think you have to be aware of the implications of the decisions that you're making. So you do have to be aware of the business. And I think as an engineer, again, that would be advice to kind of engineers starting out, become aware of what your businesses, you know, who are your key customers, what are the, you know, how was your product differentiated from other people's products, because that is important, it is important that you know, where the business is going. And I know when I was kind of mid-career, as I said, I did, I did a leadership course. But I went on and did an MBA as well. And that was very, very useful to me at the time that I did it. So I think that you know, whether it's an MBA or whether it's, you know, even in something in project management or management in general, I think that skill set that's kind of outside of engineering is very useful for you. But I would say to engineers, get your feet under the table, you know, I wouldn't be jumping into something like that when you're two years out of college. Wait until you actually know what way is that up and you know where your industry is before you go and get that skill set.

Dusty Rhodes 19:44

Do you think another way of possibly doing this and letting people know that you're interested and progressing but without being pushy if you want to put it that way is to ask questions as you say to reach out and to learn is it okay to ask people questions about the business.

Ann Ledwith 20:02

Absolutely. And I think most people will be happy to share with you. So, yeah, inquire and find out what's going on. I think that makes an awful lot of sense. Because, again, like I said earlier, it's context, I think you have to know where you're operating and where you're working, and what are the goals of the company? So what are the key aims of the company because you need to align yourself with that if you want to be moving up in a leadership or even in a management role in a company, you need to be aware of what their goals are.

Dusty Rhodes 20:30

My mind is just worrying with the amount of things that you're saying that I would have to learn about Android engineering is such a fast-paced industry and with so many different opportunities for learning, it can be a little bit overwhelming for some people, how should engineers approach their continued learning?

Ann Ledwith 20:47

Well, I mean, I would say you can't do everything. So I think sometimes you have to make choices. I can remember back, probably about 20 years ago, I put a lot of time into redesigning one of our programs. And we launched the program, and it was very successful, and I was very happy with it. And I could have decided to pursue that to stay on with that program to grow it to be the course director. But at the same time, there was an opportunity in working with continuous education, lifelong learning, and driving that. And I had to let go of something and decide to do something else to go with a lifelong learning piece because you can't do everything. And I think there are important kinds of inflection points in people's careers where they have to make decisions like that and decide, well, what's going to be taking me further apart? Am I really passionate about it? And I think when you've when you've made those decisions, then start looking at what kind of learning and what kind of upskilling you want, because it has to be relevant to you. But that's my opinion, that when you're moving forward in your career, and you've decided where you'd like your career to go, that's when you should be looking at what part of education what programs or courses can help me along the way with that.

Dusty Rhodes 21:54

So listen, tell me about you. Well, you're currently the director of UL at work, can you explain what kind of opportunities you are at work at present?

Ann Ledwith 22:02

UL as work is part of a program called the human capital and asset that was funded through the National Training Fund. So about four years ago, they open to competitive funds for universities to innovate and innovate in ways that were going to really support the development of skills and work closely with industry, looking at what kind of graduates do we need to produce. And what we did at Limerick is that we focus very much on professional education and postgraduate education. So you will at work has developed a range of programs, a lot of them are one-year part-time programs called professional diplomas, where people can upscale on areas, very diverse areas. So we've got programs in sustainability and communications and PR programs in strategic leadership in data analytics, in artificial intelligence. So there are there's a whole range of programs. But one of the things that we've done with that, which I think is a really great opportunity for students is that we've put in place a new masters called a Masters of Professional {ractice. And what the Masters is about is that you can pick any three of those professional diplomas that are going to suit your career, and you can put them together to get a master's. So you will do one of them in one year, you can do the second one, and then you can do the third one. And with your third one, you get your Masters. And it's proving really, really popular. And what it allows students to do is to really customize their learning. So we have, for example, we've had a very good program in aviation, leasing, and finance, and we've called a couple of good aviation programs, and students will do those. But they'll say, Well, actually, I need a bit of leadership with that as well. Or I need to find out about Lean, and how do I implement Lean in my company, so you'll get very diverse kind of mixes of diplomas and various of learning, but they make sense for a person's career. What we have is a structure that kind of scaffolds you through from microcredit to Masters, where you can pick a microcredit that's related to or that's part of one of these professional diplomas. Go ahead, do the professional diploma, once you know that, it's where you want to be, and then build three of these. And it goes back to my comment at the start about these kinds of pie shapes. The T-shaped professionals are now becoming pie-shaped professionals and maybe show professionals where you need a couple of deep dives and a few things, you need a couple of areas that you can say, well actually look, I can stand up and talk about that because I know that as well as having the transversal skills. And I think that's what our master's in professional practice does. It allows you to build, you know, up to three different areas that you know a lot about that you've advanced to kind of level nine to Masters level in a particular topic, but that you can bring them together kind of with some of these transversal skills,

Dusty Rhodes 24:50

the range of content of things that I can learn sounds amazing from the way you describe it and the fact that it can help my vision to move up in a career sounds amazing. I do want Want to be a leader that people are following me rather than being a manager with a hammer and playing Whack a Mole with employees all day. And the one thing that does worry me is the time elements. And it sounds great when you say it's a part-time when you're I've got a full-time job I've got, you know, three kids hanging out I've got a wife is always cranky, I made sure to mean, what kind of time commitment is there in here.

Ann Ledwith 25:23

We've been at this for a long time, and people can put in between 15 and 20 hours a week. And more than that isn't going to happen. So we can design any program we say and say there's 30 weeks studying that, it's not going to happen. As you say, for somebody who has children, a career, or a wife, sometimes older parents do all of these husband, Max, you'll be able to put in 15 hours a week, 15 to 20 hours a week. So you might put in an hour to kind of during the week after work, and then maybe one or two longer stints at the weekend. But you've got to get the balance right. And I think I suppose I'm comfortable talking about that, because I did my MBA, as I was managing things, I had my baby in the middle of my first child in the middle of my MBA, so I put a totally different color on the whole thing and trying to finish it off. It is doable, but you have to be focused on it. And I think one of the things that is quite nice about the model that we have is that you pit you take it one piece at a time, you know, so it's not saying you're committing to three years are you committing, you'll commit to one year and one year is actually two semesters and two semesters is to 15-week blocks. And you know, if you break it down like that, you can rationalize it and say, Okay, I will have a nice bit off at Christmas, I will have a short break at Easter, I've my summer off. So I think you have to keep that balance kind of between how you do everything

Dusty Rhodes 26:47

in the workplace, then how can managers and leaders that you're working with support you if you want to follow this journey of continued education,

Ann Ledwith 26:57

I think one of the key things is, you know, if you are getting on that journey of continuing education is to get the support from your manager because they need to know that you're doing this program. And they need to know that you might need a little bit of slack that you're not going to be working till eight o'clock, kind of three evenings a week, but that you need to finish up because we have more work to do. But I think part of that has to be a conversation with your manager about how this program is actually going to progress you and how it's going to help you. So it's not just that you're getting skills, but your company is getting skills, and the way an awful lot of our programs. And again, I know I'm talking about what we do at your will. But other universities have similar types of programs. But a lot of our programs are very linked to your business and linked to your workplace. So where you know, I take the lead program, it's a very good example, that as you're moving through Lean projects, your projects are requiring you to review your current working situation to look at how you can improve things. And in fact, on our lien program, the thesis that you do at the end has to make a particular contribution to your company. So you only get through with your thesis proposal, if you can show how it's going to save your company money or time or whatever it is, or improve things. And I mean, we've had some fantastic program projects there where people have saved hundreds of 1000s for the companies by being involved in a project like this. So I think the conversation very much has to be I want to do this program, it's going to help me it's going to help you this is how I'm going to bring this learning back into the workplace. And programs have to be designed like that.

Dusty Rhodes 28:29

That is almost how you start thinking like a leader because you're going home and you're saying to your partner, I want to do this extra work. Because after I will be able to do boom, which will bring benefit to us, then you're going into your employer and you're saying, I want to do this blah, blah, blah, and the benefits of the company will be bumped. And you're starting to be a leader then because you're sharing a vision for our people kind of go I want to be part of that. That's love the way you think.

Ann Ledwith 28:55

Yeah, no, it's very true. It's very true that you're looking at where this is taking me. But it's not just me. It's how it's improving the other things around me, very important.

Dusty Rhodes 29:05

If I'm considering taking on some more education in order to improve myself and to move forward. Where do I start? I mean, is there stuff that you're aware of with engineers, in Ireland? Is there stuff that I can find on your website with you? Well,

Ann Ledwith 29:21

yeah, I mean, there is stuff that you'd find on engineers, Ireland, and upskilling. But the government has actually done really good work over the last number of years and we were very supportive of people who want to go back to education. So our Springboard program is a fantastic place to start. And the springboard offers programs across the range, a whole pile of different areas. And they're pretty much you know, they're very well funded, but about 90% funded, and those are all open now. So, anybody who wants to go on to the Springboard web website, we see a whole range of programs. The other group that works really well with upscaling our skill nets and our skills are working across all the regions across all the different areas of technology. And they're also looking at what are the needs of the industry, what are the skills that they need. So those would be two very obvious places to go. But also on for any of the universities, I mean, now is the time where we're kind of coming to the end of our recruitment cycle for September. So depending on what you want to do, or where you want to go, if you go on to our URL website and look for postgraduate education, you will find a list of different programs that are available there. And you know, the same in any institution. 

Dusty Rhodes 30:32

You have affected me and I hope you have affected the person listening to the podcast at the moment in that I want to be a leader. I don't want to be a manager. I want to be a leader. And I find that everything that you've said has been very inspiring today. So thank you so much for sharing with us on the podcast today. Thank you. If you'd like to find out more about Ann and some of the topics that we did speak about today, you will find notes and link details in the show notes area of your player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and exclusive advanced episodes of our Engineers Ireland AMPLIFIED podcast on our website engineersireland. ie. Our podcast today was produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland. If you'd like more episodes do click the Follow button on your podcast player right now to get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. Until next time, from myself, Dusty Rhodes, thank you for listening.

Looking Up and Looking Out

As the engineering sector continuously evolves and grows, how can you stay on top and progress in your career?

Today we discover how leading managers achieved their ascent in the industry and what key qualities they look for in their teams. We also hear how employee wellbeing is crucial to operating a safe workplace.

Joining us to tell us more is Director of TII’s Professional Services Division, Helen Hughes and Director of Operations with Jacobs, Jillian Bolton.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Things we spoke about

1:21 Finding your chosen discipline
3:31 How engineering has evolved

6:20 5G in cars of the new future

7:57 Work/Life Balance

10:33 How safety to changing on site

13:40 The qualities required to move up the ladder

17:00 The importance of being visible

19:49 Moving into management 

24:21 Continuous learning - exhausting or exciting?

Guest Details

Helen Hughes

Helen was appointed Director of TII’s Professional Services Division in 2015 following the establishment of Transport Infrastructure Ireland. Helen has over 30 years of experience in transport planning, project appraisal and project management and has worked in the UK, Ireland and France in the public and private sectors. Helen has been a member of TII’s Executive Team for 7 years, has 18 years’ experience with NRA and 10 years with Consulting Engineers.  She has experience in delivery of capital projects, development of strategies, policies, technical reports, road design standards, specifications, and research.

She is a Chartered Engineer and holds a Bachelor of Civil Engineering degree and a Diploma in Project Management. She has been a Council Member of Engineers Ireland and Chairperson of WITS, a voluntary organisation supporting women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

Jillian Bolton

Jillian Bolton is a Chartered Civil Engineer with 20 years’ experience in the engineering industry, predominantly supporting capital infrastructure clients in the development and construction of national infrastructure. As Regional Lead for Water Ireland & Scotland, Jillian is responsible for the continued development and growth of the region, supporting and developing an extensive team of engineering professionals within the water infrastructure sector delivering on capital investment frameworks and projects for our clients.

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

Quotes

When you start in engineering, you realize how many different disciplines there are, but they also have many different types of roles within all of those disciplines. - Jillian

The thing that's very rewarding is that you can see very visibly the difference you make. You're delivering infrastructure for the people of Ireland, so I think that's quite gratifying. Jillian mentioned the major inter urban road network that we delivered in the naughties. And that's a huge legacy for generations to come. So the love of engineering is directly related to the impact you're making, for me. - Helen

It's the always-on culture. People are now saying that they're going to leave their mobile phones off for six hours or 12 hours to switch off. We shouldn't be always-on, we never were in the past. - Helen

I would say making sure that you're looking up, and you're looking out. It's saying yes to other things that may not be just purely in the engineering fixed fields that you're in. But it's also looking up from what you're doing at the moment. You've got to be aware of what else is going on within your organization or within your sector and even within the wider infrastructure sector - Jillian

Transcription

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Speakers

Jillian Bolton, Dusty Rhodes, Helen Hughes

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on Amplified, the Engineers Journal Podcast. We're about to talk career progression. Somebody with

Jillian Bolton  00:06

an inquisitive mindset and somebody that wants to find solutions. I

Helen Hughes  00:09

totally agree about problem solving. If there were no problems, none of us would have any job.

Jillian Bolton  00:14

It's about finding your way through the problems and being able to identify solutions for a problem that gives the best benefits

Helen Hughes  00:20

openness to new learnings and enthusiasm for new learning.

Dusty Rhodes  00:25

Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes. Welcome to amplified the engineers journal podcast. As the old song says, The only way is up but many people in engineering can struggle to make that next step getting up the ladder. However, one of the great things about engineering is that there is unlimited opportunity for learning and development. And there is lots to be learned from those who've come before. So today, we're with two people who we hope will inspire us to reach for the next rung. First off joining us, we have the Director of Professional Services with ti who has over 30 years of experience in transport planning, project appraisal and project management. Helen Hughes, thank you very much for joining us today.

Helen Hughes  01:06

Good morning, dusty.

Dusty Rhodes  01:07

And we're also chatting with the director of operations with Jacobs, who brings 20 years of engineering experience predominantly in the development and construction of national infrastructure. Jillian Bolton, you're very welcome as well.

Jillian Bolton  01:20

Thank you. Dusty.

Dusty Rhodes  01:21

So Helen, tell us how did you first get involved in engineering?

Helen Hughes  01:25

And well, obviously, I studied engineering, I actually went to UCD. And then, where I was very interested in water and wastewater at the time, but I graduated in the late 80s, and went directly to England. And my first project was on a motorway construction site. So since then, I've never actually worked in anything with transport, both from construction, design, delivery, all the way through in all the phases of these projects.

Dusty Rhodes  01:54

And Julian, how about yourself? How did you get how did you get into this business?

Jillian Bolton  01:58

Well, interesting. Lee, I was also when I finished university, I was also mostly interested in water and wastewater sector. But originally, I also went into the transportation side. So I worked on some of the major inter urban highways in Ireland for maybe the first sort of eight or nine years, and then with the establishment of the water utility in Ireland, maybe about 10 years ago, and then spent nearly the last 10 years there as well.

Dusty Rhodes  02:26

And it's, it's a kind of a thing with, with both of you, where you kind of got into the engineering first. And it was only after you got involved that you found your your love,

Helen Hughes  02:34

and love, love engineering. That's a strong word. But I think the thing that's very rewarding is that you can see very visibly the difference you make. So you've got something tangible at the end of it. And, you know, you're delivering infrastructure for the people of Ireland, really, and it's quite gratifying. And that's a huge legacy for generations to come. You know, by the way, we'll be driving on electric or automated vehicles, or a railway line, you know, it's an infrastructure, they're, like the railways of the Victorian era. So the love is directly related to that the impact you're making,

Jillian Bolton  03:14

I was just gonna say, like, there's a, there's a real you can see a real people have real passion, about about, not necessarily about like, the engineering, technical details, but it's about the delivery of something that is, is valuable and worthwhile and can make a difference to people's lives.

Dusty Rhodes  03:31

Helen, can I ask you kind of like looking back over the last, whatever, 1015 years or so how do you think engineering as a profession has evolved?

Helen Hughes  03:40

In the last 1015 years? I think it's definitely engineers now are working as part of a multidisciplinary team, which is very, you know, it's very interesting, and it really helps your engineering skills.

Jillian Bolton  03:54

Well, I would agree, first of all Italian, originally, kind of engineering was in isolation. But now all of their projects are delivered by each of those sort of elements coming together in order to successfully deliver the project, it can't be done on its own. But the real shift, I think, in the last maybe five plus years is around well, in what you mentioned, during sustainability, and also the digital piece, you know, that those, those are, how we're going to sort of, well, I mean, society is moving along in that in that regard and these expectations around sustainability, and there's, there's regulatory requirements in terms of meeting carbon targets, but also the pace of digital is just unbelievable. So, you know, as an engineering industry, we have to try to also keep up with that.

Dusty Rhodes  04:38

So how do you see that Julian kind of like, if you were to look like, let's just say five years into the into the future, or even say 2030 Whatever we really think it's gonna be or what did he do you think it'll be a fundamental change?

Jillian Bolton  04:49

Well, I hope that all of the projects that we are working towards delivering and programs of work that they're that sustainability and carbon management is a is Driver as opposed to being an add on or as a as something else just to do that, you know, energy efficiency reduction and carbon catchment management type approaches or systems management types approaches where it all needs to come together to make a really effective solutions and to make really positive shifts for society going forward. So I think hopefully, in that, in that timeframe, we are looking at our programs and working our projects from a from a whole system's approach rather than in isolation.

Helen Hughes  05:31

Just on that whole aspect. For example, now transportation is very linked in with the whole energy sector, as we go to electrify our fleets. But it's also linked into the communication networks because because we will need to link into 5g networks to communicate between vehicles as part of this connected world. So So now you're interfacing with communications, electrification, and transport transport before was just transport. That interdisciplinary nature is fascinating. And I always remember, as a student, we talked about engineering, harnessing the great forces of nature, and that whole area of resources and using use of resources and efficient use of resources. This is another key aspect of the work we're doing.

Dusty Rhodes  06:20

Can I ask you, Helen, because you mentioned electric vehicles, and I think everybody's kind of thinking, well, we're definitely going electric vehicles. xiyue kind of everything. Well, you said 5g as well. I know internet is important. And I would imagine at a national level, and when you're talking, you're kind of taking trains and planes and buses and those kinds of things. Do you think 5g is going to make its way into our cars?

Helen Hughes  06:43

I do. All cars will be connected to the internet, I think all cars at the moment on production will be so instead of us putting up variable message signs on our on the motorway network, you're going to get messages into your car sending a roadworks ahead in three kilometers. Beware, instead of putting up with these hard gantries, you're going to be told there is a accident 10 kilometers ahead, maybe we want to divert to another route. So that whole and messaging information will be a key part of how we travel in the future.

Dusty Rhodes  07:22

And it's quite I mean, it's we haven't today on our on a mobile phone. So if you've got Google Maps or something like that, are you linking in with Apple CarPlay or Android, auto or whatever, it will tell you that there's a problem overhead. And what I find amazing is that it will tell you that it's going to cause you a seven and a half minute delay. And it can be quite accurate. Sometimes it's quite scary, but you think that that is going to actually built into the motor vehicle itself into the dash

Helen Hughes  07:49

is wherever you can get your onboard unit should be part of this standard dashboard. So you won't be hopefully won't be distracted looking at your phone.

Dusty Rhodes  07:57

This is I want to chat with you both about careers. But before we kind of get onto that on our last episode of the podcast, it was a very big emphasis on the importance of safety in engineering. And I just want to have a quick chat with both of you about that. Julian, the well being of employees. I mean, it's hugely important, and it's very high, it can be a very high pressure and fast moving industry. What do you feel the industry is getting right and wrong with well being?

Jillian Bolton  08:24

I think there's a lot of change. You can see you can see in the industry, I think I don't know how long if you agree. You can see a lot more talk and a lot more initiatives and a lot more consideration around things like we call them Mental Health First Aiders, but there's other there's other terminologies and organizations about so it's not just again about the when you're actually on your you're on a bill on a construction site. It's about exactly I think so. I do think that's really encouraging to see, I think that you know, I think that people are more considerate of their own work life balance and their own expectations and their own needs around what they want from their career and what they want from their employer. So that obviously hasn't hasn't benefit from a wellbeing perspective as well and needs to be we need to be mindful of that you know, that people work is not everything, you know, that there's there's a lot more to people's lives now.

Dusty Rhodes  09:25

Helen, do you think that when you're looking at it from a managerial point of view that when you take a person's work life balance on their wellness and safety and kind of look at it all together that you're getting more out of people

Helen Hughes  09:36

like to see it as part of good management like this work life balance. So what initiatives can you help do to help work life balance so we have a policy for digital switch off so that you don't send emails after six o'clock? Only if it's urgent, so people need to be able to switch off I think, now that we're working in a more blended way even more so. We have to be able to say okay, this is so switch off at a certain time and not be always on. And I think that's, it's always on culture. Even talking to people now people are saying they're going to leave their mobile phones or for, you know, six hours, 12 hours. So this switch off, we're not we shouldn't be always on, we never were in the past. I think that's, that's huge. And generally we, we look at sickly statistics, check that they're sort of in sort of in line with what's normal and certified. So you know, how many people we have employee assistance programs, how many people are benefiting that, because there has been a, you know, a rise in anxiety since COVID. So, we monitor those things we can measure, we monitor, and then we can do sort of employee engagement, or check ins, very, very often. So to try and really cool also safety culture in the organization. But I'm also in charge of road safety, construction, safety, light rail safety, and occupational safety. So safety is a core part of my job.

Dusty Rhodes  11:06

And when you are looking at out there in the workers, we're talking a lot about office space stuff. But when you're on site, what what ways are safety changing what's what's the concern in your head?

Helen Hughes  11:16

Well, I think the good things that happened when I worked in a construction site in the UK, and my site and duction was honest, the resident engineer said to me on the site this size, it's going to be two fatalities. That's the statistical norm. And what he should have said to me is on a site this god size, statistically, there may be two, but on this site, there's going to be zero. So it's that fatalism that that's just the way it was, so that that's a positive change. That no, this is not acceptable. So the zero tolerance has, it's not just a nice thing to say, it's definitely happening. It's also happening for insurance reasons, as contractors do not want to have, you know, large any fatalities or serious injuries on their construction sites, a lot of motivators for that, as well as, obviously, the the demiral. The amount, there's, there's, there's financial and economic considerations, too. So huge change, I'd say we never get complacent, the whole area of monitoring and data and saying, How are we doing, like we report every month, to our board on safety, and we need good quality information. Julian, you look

Dusty Rhodes  12:34

slightly shocked. And I am as well, when you say, when you look at a site, and there's gonna be x amount of deaths. Well, what's going through your head about what Helen is saying?

Jillian Bolton  12:42

I mean, it is a fact on it. And it's really, as you say, Helen, it's incredible to think that that's not acceptable anymore. And it's and that and it isn't, you know, and I think that some of what we're talking there about well being it's also about somebody mentioned it like psychological safety that, you know, when we have people on sites that they are, they feel comfortable to say, I don't feel like this is a safe environment, or I don't feel like this is safe behavior. And whether or not they're wrong, it shouldn't matter. You know, if it doesn't, and they should feel confident that will stand behind them. And we'll say that's fine. You didn't feel safe in that environment. And you were right to call it out, right to get it checked, right to have people to take a step back. That's a big thing we talked about, take a step back, have a think about it again, make sure you're comfortable, and then see see how we can go ahead. And again, I

Helen Hughes  13:31

forgot to mention in this act on that site, there were two fatalities. So it was selling prophecies. So these are a lot better now. Thank goodness.

Dusty Rhodes  13:40

Well, thankfully, we're not the days I remember when I was visiting New York and the Empire State Building, and it said there was one fatality per floor. Anyway, listen, let's move away from that and chat about kind of moving up the ladder as it were. Because I mean, you both have a great perspective from from a management role. And that's kind of what I wanted to tap into on the on the podcast today. And somebody who's kind of listening kind of want to move up, or how do I do it? Or what's the best way? Or what are shortcuts or one of the, you know, kinds of proven techniques is those kinds of things I want to find out about, I kind of started with your self, Julian, what advice would you have for someone who wants to move up the ladder in engineering?

Jillian Bolton  14:18

Yeah, I would, I would say, making sure that you're looking up and you're looking out, and also saying, making sure that you're are saying yes to to being asked to do various different things that may not, as far as you're concerned, be solely related to the role that you're doing now. So, you know, engineering, like Helen was saying earlier, it's there's so many different disciplines. Now there's so many different aspects and it's not just purely doing the design that's in front of you on or on the computer, I suppose more to the point now, from from my perspective in the industry, you know, there's work on tendering and getting new work and engaging with clients and, and then there's all the whole people management side, like we still need to run all of that people perspective. And it's. And it's not just in isolation of a project. So I would say it's saying yes to other things that may not be just purely in the little engineering phase fixed fields that you're in. But it's also looking up from what you're doing at the moment. That's what I would always say you've got to know not not to know, but you've got to keep be aware of what else is going on within your organization or within your sector, and even within the wider infrastructure, infrastructure sector.

Dusty Rhodes  15:36

Helen, what advice would you have for somebody wanting to move up?

Helen Hughes  15:39

Well, I'd echo Julian's advice about volunteering, being open to learning. And really that links in with, you know, CPD that engineers Ireland encourages. So we're moving beyond competence, that's just taken as a given. So then the other area is very much networking, you have to network with people in your field and outside your field, to learn, and you know, that they that you always learn from networking, and unconsciously network. And you can use engineers, Ireland, for different conferences. Networking is key visibility, you need to be visible, it's not good enough in really good at your job and expecting somebody to tap on your shoulder and say, Yeah, this is the job for you. So you take a proactive approach to your career development, and not waiting for somebody to suggest something to you in that area, then you need to eventually say, well, I need to learn some of the softer skills, too, if you want to go up we and I about 10 years ago, I did training from technical experts to leadership. So a lot of that engineers do that transition to being technical, competent, and now they want to be competent in management. So that's a huge area as well.

Dusty Rhodes  17:00

So when you're saying, you can't wait for somebody to tap you on the shoulder, you've got to go out and get it. So that's kind of like you're almost you're almost need to advertise, I want to move on in the career, I want to go places I want to do better than where I am now. But a lot of people would feel that seems very egotistical of me, or people will look at me and they go, oh, man, look at look, look at your man or your woman and big head on her and you know, kind of all that kind of stuff. How do you do it in a sensible way? Helen?

Helen Hughes  17:30

Well, you don't want to be a pain in the neck either. Exactly. Balance between? Well, volunteering, I think, as Julian said, you know, do give a talk, if there's they're looking for lunchtime talks in your organization. For for younger engineers have volunteered to do things. So write a paper, do an article for you know, to put in your head, I had a exalts thing for a committee in work, you know, whether it's the health and safety committee or the the pyramid committee, whatever committee just just get out of your comfort zone. Julian,

Jillian Bolton  18:12

it's about being visible. It's not that you have to say I want to be this or I want to be last but equally, it might be somebody saying, Oh, I really need help, urgently. What's with such and such a thing that's maybe not quite day to day day job. Yeah, I'll help i No problem. And then you're, you, you become more seen within your organization, you become seen within your within your team. And when other when opportunities come through to your managers or to senior people within the within your, your organization, they'll think, oh, Helen was really helpful. And she was really, she put herself up, but she put herself out there. And I'd really like to give her this opportunity. So that that way, for people that maybe aren't quite so outspoken or maybe aren't quite so comfortable pushing themselves up. That's also a way but it still comes back to the part of, you've got to put your head up and you've got to be visible.

Helen Hughes  19:02

Another was showing up. And actually, at any opportunity of a meeting or something. Be somebody who Yeah, recognizes problems, but offer solutions. And I think that's really important that you always are suggesting things, looking at innovative ways of doing things. So really showing up

Jillian Bolton  19:22

even if it's wrong, you know, like, if someone comes to you and says, I have this problem, but I think this might be the answer. That is so much better that someone that just comes in says I have a problem. You think right, well come up with something, even if it's not the right answer, you know, you can help. Yeah, exactly. They've tried and it might just be that they haven't hit on the right thing, or they haven't the right experience to have to come up with the right answer, but at least they've tried and you will recognize that recognizable and valued.

Dusty Rhodes  19:49

What I love about what you are both saying is that you're not just giving this advice to people. This is stuff that's happened to you and this is stuff that you've done, and the proof is there. I mean, you're both doing very well. You in your career, and for myself, networking was always a mystery to me. What is networking? How do you do it? And then eventually I twigged? It's, as you say, it's showing up and meeting somebody. Hello, how are you? Yeah, I'm Dusty. And you are. Networking is people you've met. And it's as simple as that. You don't have to be friends or you don't have to be, you know, sucking up to them all the time or whatever. It's literally just somebody you've met. And as you said, Julian, them when they're looking for somebody, the goal was then what was the name of that fella that we met or whatever, like, you know, so, but then away from the networking and kind of the advice that you have for people moving up the ladder? What about the actual path? Going into management? What does that look like?

Jillian Bolton  20:43

So I'm originally a civil engineer. And so I kind of moved from, I guess, a purely technical civil engineering approach into kind of contract documents, and then into project management, then some of the some of the sort of softer skills that Helen mentioned, and that sort of managerial skills around people in management and, you know, engagement around progressing, the progressing our business and growth of our business sort of, was more visible to me and more available to me, and I took those opportunities to go on to them. So that's how it worked for me. I mean, I don't know, it depends, you know, you've got kind of, we would also have very senior heads of discipline, you know, who would still be very technical people, but that would be equally a managerial role. But my role is more operational. And I, you know, I manage our team, I support them from a people perspective, but I also support them from a delivery of projects and programs from a, like a project director or an oversight role, as well. And I'm responsible for that, you know, for the delivery and the growth of those, those programs of work. So that's how that's, that's, that was my route. But I think there's probably lots of different ones. And, and it will be different, depending on people's preferential skill set, or their, you know, their what they do really well. So obviously, people that go into more of a head of discipline, managerial role are obviously quite knowledgeable technical experts.

Dusty Rhodes  22:16

Does that sound familiar to you, Helen? Or did you have a different path progressing into management?

Helen Hughes  22:22

It's a very gradual process. So it normally starts with having one or two people reporting to you. And then you learning people management skills gradually, and, and then eventually, then if you've a larger team of six people reporting to me, then you, you hone that skill, and you learn how to get the best out of people and how to understand their different perspectives and managing different personalities.

Dusty Rhodes  22:47

When you say it's a gradual process. It makes it sound like it's very long. I mean, how long does it take to get into mode? Are you a dog in like, a year, two years, five years, 10 years?

Jillian Bolton  22:58

I don't think people necessarily go, you know, people start in our sector as engineers, and that's what they want to do. It's what I think it's a good point, like, you might as well hold on, like, we're still originally engineers. And not all engineers will make good people managers. So you've got it.

Helen Hughes  23:17

I'm managing archaeologists and environmental scientists, people who are editing, you aren't engineers. So it's being hired to manage people that are beyond not in your area of specialty is a key skill. That doesn't matter that I know, people about archaeology, although I'm learning a lot, I can manage the archaeology team because i Manager, even though it's like expertise are good.

Jillian Bolton  23:41

That's an like, projects have so many range of disciplines in design as a project manager, or as a manager, you can't understand all of them, but you need to just be able to know how to get the best out of the people on your team.

Helen Hughes  23:53

And just to know how much that you need to know. So that we have, you know, in any need to core core core information, you don't need to go into the weeds. So it's keeping that a high level overview, but not losing the important facts, which is, as he get more and more I used to remember when a famous politician saying I just want an a4 sheet of you know, briefed and I understand that more and more as a result.

Dusty Rhodes  24:21

We all get into engineering for our own various, you know, reasons for getting into engineering, but then when you're moving into management, it's almost like a completely different skill. What kind of have learning is there for people who want to develop their career and go into management?

Helen Hughes  24:37

Well, there's lots of courses out there, you know, I would suggest, you know, doing to sort of diplomas whether it's in project management, or management or leadership, so it's a lot of different courses available and, and I've been lucky enough to do several leadership training courses, which have really helped me develop That's, and we've done it and you learn so much from the other people that you're doing the courses with, and that they're really vital.

Dusty Rhodes  25:08

What would you say is one of the most valuable things that you learned?

Helen Hughes  25:13

Self awareness?

Dusty Rhodes  25:16

In what sense? Explain that to me.

Helen Hughes  25:18

You just knowing your strengths and weaknesses, and yeah, what areas you need to work on in your own personal personal development, because that has a huge impact on the people around you very important,

Jillian Bolton  25:28

really important actually, to know what you're good at and what or when you need to let other people step in.

Dusty Rhodes  25:34

Julian there seems to be a constant need and a certainly a constant drive for learning and progressing and getting new skills and stuff. Do you find that constant need for learning exhausting?

Jillian Bolton  25:46

Well, no, I'm exhausted. But that could be loads of other things. Know, because, because it's exciting. You know, like, we talked about earlier on about how disciplines are changing, you know, that the sector is changing with all that. What was really interesting with Alan was saying, buy cars having 5g, I never would have even thought of that. But that whole digital piece is moving so quickly. But it comes back to the point about knowing your own skill set. And so there are people that will be really knowledgeable and educated and expert in those areas, and whose skill set maybe is more aligned as the sort of newer disciplines come on board, or more aligned to lining with them. But to the point that Alan was making as a manager, as a project manager, it's your job to get the best out of those people. And that's a different skill in terms of understanding how to get the best out of them. So it's, it's it's a yeah, that, that leadership is, is a constant learning. And I find a lot of it is learning as you're learning as you're doing. And as you're having more visibility in different parts of your own organization, like Colin was talking about being on the executive board, and I, but when I move into different levels, you know, you can, you can see, and you can get a little intimidated at first and think, oh, right, while I'm a long way from there, but that's fine, because you have just moved into that area, and you need to listen and learn to see how everybody else behaves doesn't mean you need to behave as they do. But understand what take what you need from that to develop your own skill set and move it on. But it's exciting to see like there's so much to go, I

Helen Hughes  27:26

just it's definitely not exhausting, because of the the opposite would be true, you'd be exhausted. And you'd be so bored. So a lifelong learning is part of life for everybody. And even when I'm retired and like you can't, but openness to to new learning is key.

Dusty Rhodes  27:45

Well, let's leave it there for today. Helen Hughes and Gillian Bolton, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. Thank you.

Helen Hughes  27:52

Thank you very much.

Dusty Rhodes  27:55

If you'd like to find out more about Helen and Jillian and some of the topics that we spoke about today, you'll find notes and link details in the show notes area on your player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and exclusive advanced episodes of our Engineers Ireland Amplified podcast on our website at engineersireland.ie. Our podcast today was produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland. If you'd like more episodes, do click the Follow button on your podcast player to get access to all our past and future shows automatically. Until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes. Thank you for listening

AMPLIFIED: Aidan O'Connell, Managing Director at AOCA Engineering Consultants Ltd

Few of us are presented with a problem so big it needs to be dealt with on a national scale.

When Aidan O’Connell discovered pyrite, he tackled it head-on, literally writing the book on how to deal with it. Today, he is an acknowledged expert in the area worldwide.

A hands-on pragmatic civil engineer, Aidan’s colourful career has spanned from his early days in the UK, to running a successful small firm in Portlaoise for almost thirty years. In this packed half hour, he pulls no punches on pyrites’ early days in Ireland and the processes he helped develop to tackle it. He also shares invaluable information on the challenges of engineering, moving up the ladder and what he sees in the immediate future.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Topics we discussed include:

03:27 The most insightful advice he ever received
06:09 The biggest challenge of his career
07:47 How he set industry protocols and standards
09:07 The problem with Pyrite
15:25 How he started his own firm
20:11 Competing with local councils
26:50 The one thing you must have to move up the ladder
27:50 Process of being named a Fellow of Engineers Ireland

Guest details

Aidan is a Chartered Civil Engineer with additional qualifications in Geotechnical Engineering and Project Management. After starting his career in the UK, he returned to Ireland to establish his own firm AOCA in 1996, expanding to Dublin in 2014. Aidan is regularly called on as a civil / structural expert with particular expertise on Pyritic Heave. He also holds the honour of being a Fellow of Engineers Ireland.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidan-o-connell-91128b1b/
https://www.aoca.ie

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer.
https://www.engineersireland.ie/

Quotes

You're starting out as a civil or structural engineer but what you will be in ten or twenty years will not be what you started out as. I found that to be absolutely true.

You're not going to move up the ladder unless you go for chartered status. That's an absolute minimum that you need to be able to bring to the table. That gives you the credibility to be able to sign reports and sign documents that you are qualified, that you're recognized, to be able to do that.

I don't know where engineering in Ireland in the ten, five or even two years is going. The reason is that it's moving so fast and it’s direction can be confusing. It's all about speed, speed, speed, speed.

Transcription

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate AI transcription of the episode.

Dusty Rhodes  0:01 

Right now on Amplified the Engineers Journal podcast we're about to meet the Managing Director of AOCA Aidan O’Connell.

Aidan O'Connell  0:08 

Being an engineer is a fantastic career. Every single day is a new day and every single day is a learning day. If you are good at what you do, your clients will come. The single biggest problem I've ever had to fix is the pyrite issue that started out back in say 2006 - 2008 and then really came to the forefront in the early 2010 to 2012 period. This was something I went ‘wow, I don't understand this’.

Dusty Rhodes  1:00 

Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to Amplified the Engineers Journal Podcast. Today, we're chatting with a man who will be sharing a little bit about how to grow an engineering business or even maybe how to take over the running of an engineering business. He also has a fascinating story to tell behind one of the big construction stories of the last 20 years with the pyrite problem. He is a chartered civil engineer who returned from the UK to establish his own firm in Portlaoise in 1996, then expanded to Dublin in 2014, before being named a fellow of Engineers Ireland. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome the owner and Managing Director of a AOCA Aidan O'Connell. How are you?

Aidan O'Connell  1:39 

Good morning to see all good here in Port leash.

Dusty Rhodes  1:43 

Excellent. Listen, let me get your engineering credentials. First, what inspired you when you were a child to get into this silly business of ours?

Aidan O'Connell  1:52 

Strangely, I had no intention of being an engineer. I was that no, no medicine rules as far as I was concerned, right. And ultimately, I did my leaving cert like everybody else. And back then the points weren't as onerous as they are now in that back then we were I think it was 20 points to medicine. Yeah. Which was obviously high in terms of, they just gave you a lot less, you don't get the huge numbers of points for an A or a B. So ultimately, I miss out medicine by a single point. And engineering was down as my second choice. So I decided to faith had decided that that's I wasn't gonna do medicine. And in fairness, my wife had said to me many times that she's a nurse can't help anybody who ever saw you as a doctor. Because if you're going to be rebuilding them, or cutting the legs off and back together, again, maybe $4. And in that, none of that. Hold the hand. Nice, gentle engineer, or sorry, Doctor shoulder say, so I ended up doing engineering. And I have to be absolutely honest with you. I've loved every minute of us. There isn't a single second, I would say my entire career that I have doubters. Verba down the right route. I have traveled and I've met amazing people. I've spoken Australia, in in the doctrines and the UK talking to lads on site because they only spoke Australia because it was the pub, what you did over there if you wanted a bit of privacy on site, I had the time Yeah, half the time, you know, and I've gone to New York, and I've spoken I swear to god over there. Look, it's been having a small bit of the girl get is very helpful as well that way.

Dusty Rhodes  3:27 

When did you sit back and just say to yourself, I've achieved the dream, I am now an engineer.

Aidan O'Connell  3:32 

I've never said that. I've always said that every single day is a new day, and every single day is a learning day. So if you don't learn something new every single day, you're kind of wasting your life. I would say being an engineer is a fantastic career. One of the most insightful lectures or talks I've ever heard was one the week I was not a final year in college. And it was fantastic that they actually brought in somebody like that. And he was an engineer himself, who basically said, Look, lads, you're starting out as a civil or structural engineer. That's what you're starting is, what are you going to be in five years and 10 years and 20 years or 30 years time, you will not be what you start to doubt us. And that is absolutely true. I started out with the homes over in the UK as a junior site engineer. Fairly quickly over there I progress have been site manager still being an engineer, which was extremely helpful. And then once I met my wife, Mary, and then we moved back here to Ireland in 1991. I then became a road design engineer working on that design of the Portuguese motorway. And I can absolutely tell you, I had zero design experience of most ways. When I came back to Ireland. I had very little experience of pressing buttons on computers and get them to actually work on design the things but you learn very quickly because engineers are incredibly adaptable

Dusty Rhodes  4:56 

in those kinds of I don't want to call it Verity. years but kind of the days when you were hands on engineering on a day to day basis what was what is the biggest challenge you faced on a job?

Aidan O'Connell  5:07 

I don't think there's a single engineer who's not hands on job their entire life throughout their entire career.

Dusty Rhodes  5:14 

Even though you're managing director now you're you're still hands on.

Aidan O'Connell  5:17 

Absolutely. I was on a site yesterday in London only and there was looking at intumescent material and on structural steel and looking at structural failures has occurred. And I will be doing that I hope to the day I day are starting to the day I retire, I don't think I will ever actively retire, I will still say I'd be keep my hand in because you need to keep your brain moving. And most efficacy engineering does do that for you. So there is never going to be a time when regardless how how high you go, if you lose touch with what you are, which is an engineer, then you're only becoming a manager. And really, that's not what I want to be grand well that widens the fields then the biggest problem you had to fix Bihar, the single biggest problem I've ever had to fix. Good god that is a big one. So the single biggest thing in my career that I've had to try and understand and help people with it's most definitely been the pyrite issue that starts out bikin say 2006 1000 7000 A's and then really came to the forefront in the early 2010 11 and 12 period was the first case I ever saw will be back in say 2006 And it wasn't very unusual thing. It was actually in breakcore case all her blockwork should I say and I was home county Claire. And it this was something I went wow, I don't understand this. But ultimately, I sponsored and engaged actively with Galway University NUI Galway and Dr. Brian McCabe down there was an incredibly forward thinking gentleman. We're in the civil engineering department and they worked with some of the students there's both his masters out and as postgraduate, final year projects. And we did a monstrous amount of research over a table five years where we actually built rigs who build test slabs we we design systems, so we can actually monitor how this whole pyrite problem came about. And then ultimately, we got involved in writing the original protocols. Now we all call them standards originally, they were called protocols for how you go about testing and analyzing and then that develops and writing the ISO 398 standard. Within a CI there was myself and another colleague of mine in ARCA. Colin Scott, we did that in conjunction with an entire committee in NSCI.

Dusty Rhodes  7:47 

Give me a little bit more detail about how you set those protocols and, and standards, especially when you're working with a number of other people.

Aidan O'Connell  7:54 

Yeah, I was very lucky. I had the help of James Lambert, who God rests on me. He was the managing director of investigation iron clearances. And he was one of the world's greatest gentleman in terms of helping anybody. So he gave me all of his advice. And we looked at what testing procedures or protocols are actually available for sampling of, of stone and sampling of, of the mineralogy of stone itself. And then they come across Dr. John Crips, who was in Sheffield University and was a very well written engineer or geologist in relation to this field. And then there are other people as well, a Paul Quigley of agsl, who came along and gave me their advice. So ultimately, it was by talking to these people and saying, Okay, we suspect that this is a chemical reaction process that is that we need to be able to detect the various stages others and be able to physically see us, but not only physically see it that we can actually test it from the analytic process and have a printout that we can take. There you are, there's the answer. Black and white, black and white.

Dusty Rhodes  9:05 

What exactly was it you were looking for?

Aidan O'Connell  9:07 

We were looking for the byproducts ultimately when you see the whole pyre I think it starts out as iron sulfide which is FeS to so iron sulfide reacts Amber water, it goes to a number of chemical reaction passes. One of the byproducts is iron oxide, which is just brown staining, you will see on stone, but the final byproduct is gypsum and gypsum because it is twice the size of an original pyrite crystal it causes the expansion of the stone on the fracturing of the stone etc. So, we want to be able to actually physically see the gypsum crystals which you can under a microscope and you were to much more detail in terms of electronic microscopes and xr D which is X ray diffraction testing, so you can go all the way down that route and if you do the XR D, it will actually give you a printout that says there is pyrite there is other minerals that are other byproducts that you can do physically see them within the stone itself?

Dusty Rhodes  10:04 

And where did you take the samples from?

Aidan O'Connell  10:06 

A lot of samples were all taken from houses where there was damage that was being demonstrated. That looks like it might be an expansive reaction that was happening and what parts of the country all we started out originally in Dublin and that was the our first location is ours in Dublin. Now we had had as the said you the first case ever saw was in callaloo in coach Claire, but that was in blockwork. And there was a few years earlier, but the very first sample of taking stone from beneath her house was in County Dublin.

Dusty Rhodes  10:39 

Is it localized depending on like kind of a local quarry has the problem, or is it a national problem in that it's a quarry who exports bricks nationally?

Aidan O'Connell  10:48 

It's a national issue in that pyrite is present in I'd say every single county in the country almost probably except the ones that never were covered under water, turn the Ice Age etc, by kids going back that far. So pyrite really is is as a result of kind of sedimentary processes where material is deposited. So what what would it be in estuaries historically, or floodplains? Historically, they they are susceptible having pyrite in leash where our head offices I don't I haven't come across a single case where it's pure limestone down here. It's quite clean. But like if we go and say that, yes, it's in mail. Yes, it's in Claire. Yes, it's in Limerick. And we've got about 13 counties of Ireland for we have identified problems.

Dusty Rhodes  11:35 

You're very well known with this particular problem. And you now work on this abroad is pyrite, better or worse around Europe, from what you've seen

Aidan O'Connell  11:44 

in Europe. It's not really the prevalent problem. It has been known in the UK for a very long time. If we go back to the 50s and 60s, and even earlier than that they identified as the Monday Kisha down in Cornwall and Devon. And they saw it there within the blocks because it was a byproduct from the tin mining down Cornwall and Devon. So the tailings a sorter came off the quarries there aren't and from the mines, they would have been used actually made concrete blocks for the houses down there. And ultimately, because it was added as a pyrite in it over the years, they would have did degrade to a certain extent. Now interestingly down there not all houses are a demolition problem or the damage one of them is a varying degrees to such an extent that they are actually sold and you can get raise a mortgage on them, and you can live in them and you and depending on the degrading that they have, you may end up having to do a little bit more maintenance on them over time. But they are still a perfectly satisfactory property. So in Europe, no, I don't see it as hugely I have been consulted in America, in various areas in America, both in Canada and also in the United States itself. Whereby we've been asked to look at various matters over there, Walmart would have been one of our clients, Nova Scotia Bank would have been another one. And invariably, what we would find is, is that in the greater American area of where you wouldn't have any significant snowfalls or severe temperature variations, you would find that the, the problem is quite similar to Ireland. When you go to Canada, it is slightly different because the psyche is significantly different, because for half the year, they will have a permafrost, temperature. And when your temperatures go right down from our research, we've seen that the reaction she kind of stops, or then it starts up again wants to Hampshire ISIS.

Dusty Rhodes  13:39 

Do you feel that engineers are in any way culpable for the problem? Because they were they're at the design stage and the planning stage?

Aidan O'Connell  13:47 

I wouldn't say the engineering industry is culpable. I wouldn't say that at all. What I would say is is that there's a number of external factors that brought this all about ultimately engineers work to standards. Those standards are created by committees working for NACA NSCI are British Standard BS in the UK, or Kiwa, or BBA, which is British Board, Vironment certification. So there's a number of different authorities that are out there that will decide what standards are applicable, etc. So if we then look at how does the standard get created? The is 29. Eight standard was created by a committee that consists of probably, I think, was 16 or 17 people. That's absolutely great. So you would have geologists you'd have government bodies, so from the Department of the Environment and the building control section of the Department of Environment, Geological Survey, Ireland, inquiry people saw there was representatives from the quarry industry from the Irish concrete industry. You had representatives from side vestigation companies like James Lombard was honest, we had Paul quickly ominous we has other people as well, from similar companies that were around, and then you had engineers as well and myself on those Shopko Colin scars, we were there representing engineers, Ireland, Paul Ford of de BFL. was also on the on the same committee. So that large committee then reviewed the whole process. And between us all, we came up with the actual standards.

Dusty Rhodes  15:25 

You strike me as a man who loves a challenge, a born engineer, I'd say, I come back from the UK, and you decided to start your own business. Importantly, with no track record in Ireland and all that kind of stuff. It's not easy. It takes a very special person to do that. You've been in business for almost 30 years, what challenges have you had to overcome in running a small engineering firm?

Aidan O'Connell  15:48 

I was lucky I had, I had a good solid base. I was reasonably financially secure. I have a good job with the country council. So I was okay at the time financially. I didn't put myself under too much pressure from a mortgage perspective, because I bought my house my first house when I was 22, in the UK, so I went over the day after my 21st birthday went towards the UK I've qualified from from UCD and went over to the UK and arrived there was, I think it was 200 pounds in my pocket and worked all summer at the Royal Marine hotel in Dublin. And London, London without a job had no place to live. Absolutely nothing. And my parents said he'd be back by the end of the week, because he won't, he certainly won't be able to find anything that quickly because I was disorganized. Bear in mind the modern you'd have the internet they have absolutely everything I had nothing. So I went to the London University over there, it looked up the Students Union and saw what accommodation was available for students made a few phone calls had a commendation that nice. So I arrived on a Tuesday and Thursday started working with when peace. And I what I can say is after the first week, my wages were just over 230 pounds. And that was more than I had saved learn for the entire summer. So I was gone up this is brilliant. So Well, ultimately, UK worked out very well for me financially and personally and professionally. And then I was able to come back to Ireland in 91 with my wife and we ended up building house in Port leash, and then we were reasonably secure. So I then decided after an OBE years with these kind of counsel and go to give this a try of going of my own. So the biggest challenge at the time was clients. I had one client who was a housing developer, and I said, Okay, well that's one source of income. And if I'm my own Towsley, a daybed, imagine what that generates. Boy, we start over to people, and I sell rice. I'm aiming to make 85,000 pounds at the time. Yeah, so huge money at the time. Yeah, so my target was make 85,000 pounds in the first year. If we if we could do that, I'd said we were fine. We made 79,000. So I wasn't too far out. But I missed the target. But that was a target. And then year two, we made 205,000. So we arrived, it's kind of gone. Okay, this is this is going to work, I think. And then over the years, the child just started to come. So starting in originally you will be thinking with this work are people going to come and while I would always say to people is that if you are good at what you do, and you put yourself out there, it will come with the work will come your clients will come there is absolutely no doubt about it. And it you just have to get over the challenge of having faith in yourself. So that was the initial biggest challenge. I had to believe in myself and say, okay, don't be looking at how other your costs on a weekly basis. How much money do I need to make every single week just keep the doors open? Forget about that. Step back and take the larger picture and go okay, how am I going to be at the end of two months? Have I enough money? Are we still there after two months, and have faith that the work will come in. And that has been the case from day one. Those challenges have changed over the years, we've never had a financial difficulty fortunately, we we've never laid anyone off as such either. There hasn't been a single case in our entire history we had to lay anyone off to to any reason in terms of financial etc. The single biggest challenge we have now is actually getting staff getting good quality staff and bloods in Danika. Think across the entire country in every single facet of business. Modern you know and they qualify from college they the first thing I think they they look at his work my goal. So they look at going to Australia or Canada, New Zealand, America or the UK and this, but the world is our oyster and I would never discourage From from doing this, while I would also love to see them coming back to Ireland, and bringing back their experiences, and fewer and fewer the murders are actually doing this.

Dusty Rhodes  20:11 

Let me ask you more about the challenges of getting people into the firm, good people, because the competition is fierce, you've got people who are moving abroad. And then you've also got your kind of local authorities are able to offer them all kinds of incentives to go there as well. And people are tempted by it. Is this a problem with you as well?

Aidan O'Connell  20:29 

It's a nightmare. Oh, a nightmare. Nightmare is the only word that I could actually describe as COVID was an extremely difficult time for every single business and was extremely difficult for engineering practices, because development stopped dead and roll across the board. And there was large amounts of people, I wouldn't say laid off, but they were temporarily stopped working. And we were similar as well, we at the bulk of our staff, we were able to keep them fully gainfully employed. But there were a small number of people that we had, say, Look, you need to avail of the COVID scheme, payment scheme, because we we literally just had no income or very little income coming in at that time, be able to cover every single person that we have employed. Once COVID, finished, we then started a backup fully with all every single member of staff that we had Bosch, it seemed to then change people's mentality as in or maybe I would like to have a little bit more time at home, or maybe I would like to have a different type of working arrangement. And the I believe we've saved from our own experiences, we lost six staff to councils. And the kind of councils are offering kind of opened the door starting 30 days and you leave which is way above the norm. And then they offer you flex leave of an additional 12 days per calendar year. So effectively, you end up with 42 days of leave quite easily. And on top of that, then you've got sick leave that I was told by two people that left or yeah, you you have sick leave that you basically must take or you should take. So instead of having maybe 2425 days leave with a OCA, the handle but 42 plus maybe another five or six days sick leave, and they're not there, they just don't they're not working. And I know some people in the local authority system are going to take great, great offense from me saying is, but the reality of it is, is that it's very difficult to get in contact with people, local authorities now because they're effectively working from home all the time. And it's very difficult to get them or they're on an annual leave or whatever it is. So getting people getting good qualified people is very, very difficult. And every engineering company is joint has the same challenge, I would say,

Dusty Rhodes  22:52 

How do you tackle that by saying what are the advantages of coming to work for

Aidan O'Connell  22:57 

you. That's where modern New comes in. And that's where my son Philip has joined us. And he is looking to bring us into the 21st century and 22nd 22nd century, if you want to call it that way. So he's going to turn this into a fun place more fun than just that standard engineering company that goes out there. And deals are problems. So he's looking to modernize us in terms of our work practices. So we will be able to give people working from home facilities, we will have make sure that all of our staff are working from the the latest hardware in terms of laptops, and that they can synchronize and work remotely etc. We already are able to do that. But effectively people take their PCs home or the week and have given them a second PC. But now we're going to go down the whole route laptops, even though there's quite a significant infrastructure investment to do that. For engineers, standard laptops are no use, we need quite high powered laptops, which are obviously very expensive to to to purchase. were much more proactive on Facebook, much more points from LinkedIn, I think that it is probably paying some dividends, we're already seeing some people that are are applying directly to us now for employment rather than was having to go through the agency roof.

Dusty Rhodes  24:15 

I'm wondering about an engineer who be listening to the podcast who's kind of like kind of mid level if you like and is thinking you know, one day I want to get up there. I want to be the Managing Director, I want to buy it. Can you tell us a little bit about this process of transitioning, and maybe we can learn something from it?

Aidan O'Connell  24:32 

Well, you can do a buyout. And that is probably the simplest and most straightforward way of doing it. And there's lots of tax breaks in terms of the entrepreneurial reliefs and then transition released going forward so that the process can be done, where it doesn't place a huge financial burden onto the company. But you have to have somebody that you can hand it over to to do this.

Dusty Rhodes  24:57 

You've seen lots of people come into the firm who are ambitious what what impresses you about somebody who wants to move up the ladder within a company,

Aidan O'Connell  25:05 

their drive and their focus. That's what it is. We have one young gentleman now with us as we speak, who is just finished his first year in university. And he came to us for a little bit of work experience, or just to see what things were like, after he had done his junior cert. He has come to us every single summer, since he's the most amazing young man with the most absorbent brain that you could imagine. And to see that young man blossoming slowly, has been full mind blowing is the only way I would say, and then to see other people that come in, and they come in as junior engineers or junior technicians, and they work their way up, and they get their experience and descend them out. The single biggest thrill for me is when I send somebody else to do an investigation or to look at the job. And they write a report on it or write a summary. And I look at that report. And it's so simple to read, it's so simple to follow. I didn't say yes, I've achieved something I've actually taught someone how to do a task. And then if you see a design, when you see somebody comes in with a concept design, and we've done some very unusual ones, they'll be on the TV and things that and they they go from a toss to a concept to paper to the calculations, and then you're physically on site, as the structure see has been put in place. And then finally, the client walks in to take possession of the property at the end of it, and their smile becomes your smile. It's fantastic.

Dusty Rhodes  26:42 

It's almost as simple as applying yourself and showing an interest and and an enthusiasm for the job. Yeah,

Aidan O'Connell  26:48 

I agree totally.

Dusty Rhodes  26:50 

What advice Aiden, would you give to engineers listening who wants to move up the career ladder.

Aidan O'Connell  26:56 

So first of all, if you're an engineer, you're not going to move up the ladder unless you go for chartered status, you have to have chartered status, that's an absolute minimum that you need to be able to bring to the table. Once you are a charters, that then gives you the credibility to be able to sign reports and sign documents that you are qualified that you're recognized to be able to do that going forward. And then if you want to move up the career ladder within an engineering consultancy, you need to be able to see the bigger picture, you're not just looking at a particular steel beam or a particular concrete column or a particular foundation, you have to start looking at the overall building. And you have to start looking at the wider picture as in, is there a better way of doing this? Is our foster wave design approach? And yes, it does come down to economics because ultimately, that's very important bird business here. We're looking at a corner shop keeper, we're trying to sell a product as a service. But we have to show good value to the client.

Dusty Rhodes  27:58 

Can I ask you about becoming a fellow of engineers Ireland? Because it's quite an honor. How did that come about?

Aidan O'Connell  28:04 

So as a result of probably the the main research work that we had done in the pyrite field, back in 2010 1112 13, and developing that, and then working with NUI Galway, and developing all of the testing that we had done, and then writing a number of papers on us, in conjunction with other federal colleagues. I was then proposed and Dr. Brian McCabe was one of the people actually who proposed me. And then there were some other fellow colleagues as well. So yes, it was a great pleasure. I have also had the pleasure of being the chairperson of the Midland region of engineers, Ireland, which, again, allow me to interact with many of my fellow Midlands colleagues. So look, I love engineers aren't I love what it does. And then to get the final accolade to say that your federal of engineers aren't, I think that's great.

Dusty Rhodes  28:57 

What excites you, when you think about engineering in Ireland in the next five

Aidan O'Connell  29:01 

years? I don't know where it's going. I don't know where engineering Ireland's in the next five years. Next 10 years in the next two years is going on. Probably the reason I don't know where it's going is that it's so fast moving its direction is very confusing. Sometimes I have looked at the head of Medusa and if you ever get it in your head of the head of Medusa, it's got multiple snakes going over gone in many, many directions. To a certain extent, I think that we're in that kind of arena at the moment because of all the many technological changes, etc, that are coming out. There have been many, many building fabric changes in the last 10 to 15 years. So where historically you'd be looking at nice brickwork or nice blog or car, car tumbling systems, etc. Now, all of that has changed because they're looking at systems that don't require so much laborer in terms of brickwork and blockwork. Now we're looking at prefabricated systems. Now we're looking at, you know, rainscreen systems, cladding systems, current modeling systems are very fast, very easy to direct. And it's all about speed, speed, speed, speed. And now we're having to go whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on a second. Now we've lost control here. In terms of some of the building products are all the the golden bullet. They weren't the silver bullet, not the golden silver bullet. They weren't the silver bullets. Why weren't they the silver bullet? Well, because we had Granville fire disaster, which showed us that some of these materials we're putting on the building, make it turn into a Roman candle, rather than a fire safe building for the occupants. And from an engineering perspective, we lost her strong of ourselves there. In Ireland, we're actually very good at understanding how building part of Scots together how we should be addressing matters. We've got the Building Regulations, which are superb in Ireland, we have a very good part B, which is in relation to fire safety here in Ireland, and the whole concept of how you should approach a building in terms of being shorts firesafe. So in England, they have what they call approved document B, which is the equivalent of our Part B, but they then develop this holistic approach of complying with the Building Regulations raishin, fire safety, it was all most of what I feel is on my water, it will be okay. So that will be okay. And that is literally how that process came about. And that they have what they call their approved building and spiritual process, which is a completely independent third party, which is grace, who is there to look at the standards or look the building process and say, Okay, I'm satisfied this building is going to comply with the Building Regulations. And they are then supposed to implement a an inspection process, and others will then sign off on it say, yes, everything was fine. Everything was great. And that paper sports, we watch gold sports be sacrosanct. Now, prior to the approved building, Inspector regime, there used to be the building control officer from the local party, who was anal in terms of his inspections, gave you hell on site, I'd got down into manholes and checked everything religiously. Absolutely. I've seen some of the mean chaser of building sites by fellas who, and he came back up and says, No, I'm refusing this, etc. And that's fantastic. But unfortunately, the UK when they went down this approved building special thing, the paperwork became worthless. Every single building that had been brought into look at over the UK has been a general disaster. So I haven't found that this battle in Ireland, and this new assigned certifier regime here in Ireland, I think, is a great way of dealing with this. But as long as we don't allow that to start losing his credibility, the minute you lose credibility in a controlled process or inspection process, you the entire process fails.

Dusty Rhodes  33:10 

Aiden O'Connell, I can't thank you enough for being so honest and for sharing so much with us. Thank you for coming on our engineers, Ireland amplified podcast.

Aidan O'Connell  33:20 

You're extremely welcome. Thank you very much.

Dusty Rhodes  33:23 

If you would like to find out more about Aidan and some of the topics we talked about today, you'll find notes and links in the show notes area of your player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and exclusive advance episodes of our Engineers Ireland Amplified podcast on our website at engineersireland.ie.

Our podcast today was produced by DustPod for Engineers Ireland. If you would like more episodes, do click the Follow button on your podcast player to get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. Until next time for me Dusty Rhodes, thanks for listening.

Discover how digitalisation has been woven into the fabrics of business and society, and how Irish engineers have risen to the challenge.

In episode two we explore how technology continues to redefine sectors of the engineering world and how these strides in digitalisation are increasing speed, accuracy and efficiency in business. 

We are joined by Michael O'Shaughnessy Digital Lead for Construction at PM Group, Ed Arnott Electrical Engineer at MMA Consulting and Darragh Ryan, a Design Manager at Horizon Offsite Ltd

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Topics we discussed include:

• Offsite engineering and its benefits (01.49)
• How digitalisation has changed how we approach project management (04.47)
• The benefits of moving away from manual work to software systems (08.21)
• Trimble and the role it plays in electrical engineering (09.29)
• The biggest challenges of working in a post covid world (16.08)

Guest details:

Michael O Shaughnessy is Digital Lead for Construction at PM Group with responsibility for delivering  PM Groups Strategic Digital Plan for Construction 2025.

Darragh Ryan is a Design Manager at Horizon Offsite Ltd. Darragh’s work focuses on the design and management of light gauge structural steel frame projects across both Ireland and the UK.

Ed Arnott, Ed is an electrical engineer at MMA Consulting. Ed’s background in the industrial gas and petrochemical industries and specialise in hazardous- area electrical design.

Contact details:

Ed Arnott Electrical Engineer at MMA Consulting Engineers
uk.linkedin.com/in/edward-arnott 

Darragh Ryan
www.linkedin.com/in/darraghryan1

Micheal O Shaughnessy
linkedin.com/in/michael-o-shaughnessy-92a5241b

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/

Quotes

The cloud has probably been the biggest transformation. We've got people spread across the world working in the same environment in the same space and they're getting instant updates.

Michael O’Shaughnessy

Offsite construction is a relatively new industry and born out of digitalization. It's something that's becoming more and more possible as digitalization progresses. 
Darragh Ryan

The great advantage of the program I use, Trimble, is that it's actually designed around the regulations. So I know not only the capability of the equipment but I also know what is considered safe and legal. 
Ed Arnott

Transcription text

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate automated transcript of the podcast.

Dusty Rhodes  0:39 

Hello, my name is Dusty Rhodes Welcome to episode two of our digitization and engineering mini series, where experts at the forefront of their engineering fields explore how digitization has been woven into the fabric of business and society and how Irish engineers are rising to the challenge. Today we have a another three amazing guests for you. They are the digital lead for construction at pm group. Michael O'Shaughnessy. Michael is responsible for the delivery of pm group's strategic digital plan for construction. 2025 Darryl Orion is a design manager at Horizon off site whose work focuses on the design and management of light gauge structural steel frame projects across Ireland and the UK. And from m m a consulting we're joined by electrical engineer Ed Arnet. Ed's background is in the industrial gas and petrochemical industries and specializes in hazardous area electrical design. Let me start with Dara. Dara, you're an off site engineer. And I can't think of anyone more perfect to benefit from digitization. How has it shaped your industry over the last 10 to 15 years?

Darragh Ryan  1:49 

Yep. So offsite construction is a relatively new industry. And it is born out of digitalization, really. So it's something that's more and more possible, as digitalization progresses, when you do a building off sites, you need a lot of coordination up front in the design, you can't really figure it out, well, you can, you can figure it out on site, but that slows everything down. And that goes back to the more traditional way of doing things. But also construction you do your your drawings and model and 3d upfront, you coordinate where the m&e where the services are going, where all the steps where they act, tact wants, doors, windows, whatever. So all that is done upfront in advance, and then you manufacture the material before it comes to site. So, you know, without the digitalization, also construction will be, you know, it wouldn't, it wouldn't be where it is today anyway.

Dusty Rhodes  2:47 

And as an electrical engineer, how has digitization shaped your industry,

Ed Arnott  2:53 

I suppose the main impact has been the speed at which you can perform a calculation. Electrical Engineering has always been this sort of iterative process, every time you make a small change, you have to say, increase the size of a cable and maybe increase the size of a fuse, and maybe you change the cable route. And all of these little changes can have a big impact on the design. So having a system where you can calculate and recalculate very quickly is extremely useful. And then of course, there's the means of recording the information and sharing it with other fields. So some programs allow you to do that, and to keep a good record of all the equipment that you plan to use.

Dusty Rhodes  3:35 

And, Michael, I think the title of your job just shows the change that we have seen in some engineering firms, you are the digital lead ad pm construction, is this a sign of the importance that digitization is having at the company?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  3:49 

Absolutely. We have a strategic plan for 2025 led by I suppose a term we call D LPD. digitally enabled lean project delivery, digital being the enabler, lean being the foundation, you know, reducing waste from processes and, and trying to get gain real value for our customers down the line as we deliver projects. So it's somewhere we have to go it's primarily driven by a major skill shortage in the industry demands our true, you know, gone through the roof. Clients want buildings built immediately as the you know, they want to get the products on the market and, you know, we're seeing something just to go back to Gary's point, you know, we're seeing a huge amount of offsite manufacturing, and lean and digital underpins, you know, the speed of how we can now deliver so it's where the industry is going and, and pm grouper are trying to stay ahead of the curve and get there you know, you know, as the front runners you know,

Dusty Rhodes  4:47 

can I ask all of you these changes in digitization has changed the way that you approach a project in the first place? So if somebody says to you, we need x building facility in y place Has that changed how you start with your blank sheet of paper? What do you think? Darren?

Darragh Ryan  5:05 

Yeah, it would, it would like, first of all, the digitalization process allows you to visualize things very, very quickly. So site constraints, you know, that can be easily understood before every year on site, you know what what roadways are near is there's real networks near. So setting up the site and site safety. That's, that's a huge thing. Now that that can be done through digitalization, that couldn't be done previously. Also, what you can do with digitalization is get experts involved, that might necessarily be from that location. For example, you can get experts in from abroad from other parts of the country, you know, that have more experience with the problem at hand. And you can do that through digitalization whether it's, you know, video calls, or you know, remote working, things like that, you know, so. So on that side of things, it leads to more a collaborative working environment where things are safer, you get the experts there, and it leads to just better project delivery.

Dusty Rhodes  6:09 

And, Michael, how has digitization changed the way you approach a project?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  6:14 

Yeah, I think I think that's a really good question. And ultimately, it underpins, you know, the whole digital transformation. So, how we started this journey was we tried to understand what we do. And the key to doing that is identifying our our core processes. So once we defined and were very clear of what our processes were, we looked at where we potentially could strike value by optimizing how we deliver those processes. So what we found was, is in any project lifecycle, the construction side is where potentially the most risk is, it's where more things can go wrong, that's the longest time on site, you've got more people that are moving, you've got a lot of equipment moving in, you know, that's where the real efficiency has to need to start. So we looked at that in real detail. And we, I suppose, identified certain processes. And we felt that if we digitize those processes from, you know, making information better available to collecting data, we could ultimately remove some of the people and waste from from projects. So to do that, what we did was we identified core activities that we would not have typically done at design stage. So we would embed certain information into the models, we would do certain activities at design stage that when the information moved to the construction phase, that information was readily available, information was set up to be utilized efficiently accessed efficiently. But ultimately, we can try to drive back a, you know, an improved quality or an more efficient quality product, you know, when it wants to get to construction stage. So we put a huge amount of effort now up front, when planning out a project because, as I said, the risk is a construction stage. And that's where you have to plan better now to make these gains and drive these efficiencies.

Dusty Rhodes  8:02 

Alright, let's get away from talking about things in general and explore things a little bit more specifically, I'd like to start with Ed on this because Ed, you're very much into the digitization programs side of things, how does using software now differ from the way things used to be done by hand?

Ed Arnott  8:21 

Well, some of the guys I trained with will give you stories from the 70s about plotting on a graph, what a fuse would do and how much energy would go through it. Now, the great advantage of the program that I use at the moment tremble is that it's actually designed around the regulations. So I know not only the capability of the equipment, but I also know what is considered safe and legal. And therefore I can adjust my design accordingly. So for example, things like the tolerances of cables are based around standards that are actually derived from the British and Irish standards.

Dusty Rhodes  9:05 

And because you know what the standards are and you know what the regulations are and you know what is physically capable, then you know that the project is that you're working on so you're able to put all of this together within that software and boom, you can make it all happen much quicker.

Ed Arnott  9:19 

Precisely. So the software already knows that I have to comply with the standards. I just need to tell it what I intend to do and it figures out the best way to get there.

Dusty Rhodes  9:29 

Tell me about the software that you're using it's trembled pro design. Now I take it you don't work for them and you're not paid for them. This is not a sponsored feature or anything like that. Tell me in a sentence what tremble pro design does is it for electrical only or can be adapted elsewhere.

Ed Arnott  9:45 

It is only electrical, it is mostly a low voltage design tool. And explain to me what that is. So if I am designing a low voltage power system, and I want to decide what size of cable to use or what size of fuse I need, I can use this program to calculate those things. I can also simulate an overall power system, how much energy I'll need? What would be the effect? If there was a problem on that system? Where is it likely to fail? That sort of thing?

Dusty Rhodes  10:18 

And is this piece of software that you need to license and install on your network or various machines in your network? Or is it something that operates in the cloud?

Ed Arnott  10:27 

It's an installed piece of software, I understand. And then

Dusty Rhodes  10:31 

how does it update itself? How does it keep itself regulated with the regulations as at work?

Ed Arnott  10:37 

Well, the software developer tremble issues, regular updates, obviously, you need to maintain your license. But yes, each time the regulations are updated, or each time a manufacturer brings a new piece of equipment to the market, then the database is automatically updated with this extra information.

Dusty Rhodes  10:57 

So let me ask you about speed when you sit down and you're doing a project, and you're trying to decide what it is you're going to use and which cables you're going to use, and how long they need to be and all that. How long would that have taken to do on paper?

Ed Arnott  11:09 

Well, there are back of the envelope calculations, you could probably do, but to give an accurate calculation, it might take an hour or so to do a calculation, which might take a matter of minutes now.

Dusty Rhodes  11:22 

So you're literally saving hours on every project.

Ed Arnott  11:26 

Right? But the real benefit is if you need to make a change, because whereas you'd have to start again, from scratch on paper with this system, you simply click a button, see what would happen if the cable route was longer, for example? And you can do so instantaneously?

Dusty Rhodes  11:43 

Does that help you then when you're trying to design and you're trying to explore new ideas? And you say to yourself, What if you're able to make those changes and see what happens?

Ed Arnott  11:52 

It's good for what if scenarios, it's also good if there is say a late change in construction, say if you have to move a substation, or perhaps a different piece of equipment is proposed from what you originally intended, then you can see what the impact would be, and you can accommodate it very quickly.

Dusty Rhodes  12:11 

And do you find that that software also helps you to make better designs?

Ed Arnott  12:15 

I'd like to think it's both better and more efficient. You shouldn't need to build in such big tolerances if you can calculate accurately what to expect. Very good.

Dusty Rhodes  12:26 

Michael, let me move on to you when you are looking back on some of your work with renewable energy. How has digitization shaped some of those processes? Oh, I

Michael O'Shaughnessy  12:37 

suppose when I was working in renewable energy, I worked on a project or the products that we developed, was designed to be remote and actually below sea level. So getting information and data off that product was something that, you know, was a huge challenge, you know, there's a huge amount of research into, you know, what information should we gather? What information would tell us what would enhance the performance of the machine. So what we find now and how that's transferable to the type of sector I'm in at the moment is, we've got teams and teams of people that are spread across the world, from clients to design teams. So you're ultimately gathering similar types of data, and making it available that provides the right information, valuable information to all those that need it, regardless of where they are in the world. So

Dusty Rhodes  13:24 

Dara had referred to collaboration as being an advantage of the digital world, do you find that there is a lot of that collaboration going on?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  13:32 

Probably one of our main innovations or initiatives this year has been to release the what we call the collaboration portal is which ultimately is each project now has its own suppose website for want of a better term. It's got all the specific project information. It's got a shared collaboration space where you know, the entire team work and save all of their information or access their information. But I suppose where the benefits are, is each projects collaboration portal are structured identical. So where we have teams that are, you know, a bit more dynamic, that are moving from project to project, they can go to the very same location, regardless of the project and find that very same piece of information that's relevant to that project. So, you know, collaboration is key. Similarly to that we've, you know, launched an initiative called tiered agility, which is ultimately how we structure and manage our meetings, right down from the daily huddles that designers will have, you know, in relation to what their daily tasks are, right through to coordination between the different teams to the different trade partners that we work with, right through to management and then at leadership and governance level, or we're dealing with clients. So we've a real firm structure on how we want teams to communicate. So that means the people at the top have visibility and can access the core information that would matter to them and matters. to clients when they, you know, and gained and got gathered out efficiently, traditionally to projects would have typically, at the outset sort of set itself up, you know, in its own way, particularly large projects, you know, every project manager may have, historically may have had their own flavor of how they want to structure the project, but probably bringing in the standardization enables digital, and I suppose it enables efficiency. So, as people move around, they're working in a common environment.

Dusty Rhodes  15:28 

So, is this part of the strategic digital plan that you're putting together for PM?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  15:33 

Absolutely, yeah, it's that standardization. And that's key to success here, it would be very difficult to digitize, you know, multiple flavors of the one way of working. So you have, we have to standardize and, you know, if you have a common way of working, you can then enhance that way of working with it with one digital solution. Albeit, you can improve that digital solution over time. But I suppose all of these digital solutions, you know, require investment. So, you know, you need to, you know, invest and get benefitted out and use that investment, and products across multiple projects to gain value from it.

Dusty Rhodes  16:08 

We have a huge heavy hand from COVID, because it just accelerated everything that was digital last terrific. But now, we've been through that. And we've made a lot of advances in collaboration and being able to work across digital platforms, with your own strategic digital plan within PM, what's your biggest challenge over the next six months?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  16:30 

It's good question. Everybody's back to work. And everybody is traveling again. And the demands from the sector are huge, I suppose it's fixing on you know, certain processes, ensuring that we gain that real efficiency, you know, knowing exactly where we want to push our digital take our digital journey. That's the property the big push, but I suppose the demands on the business to accelerate and then the digital team to be able to maintain that speed is going to be the challenge. Dara

Dusty Rhodes  17:00 

offsite construction, that is your area and digitization must have made a huge difference in that. How do you explain to people the advantages of off site versus more traditional on site construction.

Darragh Ryan  17:14 

So off site what it aims to do, right? It's it aims to construct buildings more quickly, more reliably and sustainably, by taking work away from site and using off site construction. Right. So off site isn't just like gauge steel, what I do, there's two main types of it. There's there's two D Systems, and that includes like a steel frame, which is what I'm involved, that would also include timber frame, precast, panels CLT. But there's also 3d offsite systems as well volumetric systems, much modular systems, you know, so horizon where path of an E Text group now, so we mainly focus on residential buildings. So everything from high apartment blocks, concrete floors, to small houses, lightweight floors, student accommodation, hotels, healthcare, when you compare it to traditional construction, which is a more linear approach, first, the foundations get built, then the walls, then each floor and the roof, you know, whereas also construction teams can happen in parallel. And that ties in, you know, the digital process that allow that to happen. But, for example, while the foundations are being built, you can have walls being made in a factory. And then as the floors go up, you can be fitting out your internals. So things things happen in parallel, that speeds up time on site. So we can cut down, you know, a structural frame program for a superstructure of up to say, 50%. With like HCl, compared to traditional construction,

Dusty Rhodes  18:48 

I just want to double check that you're telling me that you can build the building 50% faster?

Darragh Ryan  18:54 

Yeah, true. We just do a structured frame, but we normally allow, like, if we're on a housing scheme, three days per house, that's walls, up floors in roof on watertight structure. Okay, so it's apartment block, I mean, it all vary in size, but you're talking a typical apartment block a week per floor to construct it, you know, so, so you are talking about 50% saving to say some of the more traditional methods, so also, if it's utilized, right, and that pre design stage goes in early, you can have massive savings and get reduced that site time, you can get revenue earlier, you know, from selling your buildings or renting it depends what they're being used for. So it has massive, massive advantages in terms of speed. I guess then another advantage, it will be the sustainability side of things. You know, it tends to be a lot lighter. It's less carbon footprint than say your your heavier, say more concrete based masonry block schemes. So sustainability is all So another general key advantage in it, and I suppose we touched on the other things earlier, but like quality control, it's in a factory environment, it's also leads to safety. You know, so there's a lot of advantages with like H and off site in general, that are coming into mainstream more and more now. And Michael will testify to that. But we saw the opportunity in the market, and you know, that that's why we're here today, really, that there is an opportunity, it has advantages, and it can, you know, deliver housing and buildings, you know, affordable. And quickly.

Dusty Rhodes  20:37 

How about digitization with clients? Because I mean, it's great for ourselves to know the industry, and we know all the parts. But what about trying to get the clients in understanding the design?

Darragh Ryan  20:48 

Yeah, so what we do is we develop a pre construction model is what we call it, we call it a pre con model for short. And we work in the Autodesk Revit environment. So we build a volumetric model, which is basically just shell elements of the walls, because our walls will have a certain thickness, you know, for the system build. So we build the volumetric model and coordinate that with the architect, you know, so the openings are in the right place, the right size, the walls are in the right place, steps in the slab, whatever, and then also bring in the other design team members. So mechanical and electrical is a huge part. So we would model in openings where the services need to be under huge openings. In buildings these days for mechanical ventilation, for example, we would model in them openings haven't pre made in the factory, so that no subsequent work needs to be done on site. And we would use this model as the basis to collaborate with the client and the clients design team, we would issue out the model with drawings. And that would be used as a tool to comment back to us to build this model accurately. We then use that model then to do everything internally becomes our kind of central design. So we use it to do the structural engineering, we export the steel if there's a hot rolled columns and beams in to the steel fabricators for fabrication. And we also then export it to our own in house detailing software to detail the studs. So that pre con model in Revit becomes a central model for all the coordination and all the design and, and then the manufacturing design as well.

Dusty Rhodes  22:31 

Let me ask you all, because there's pros and cons to everything in life. And we've been talking very much about the pros of digitization and wonderful is, what is the one thing that niggles you that is not being looked after? At the moment? I'll start with add on that one.

Ed Arnott  22:48 

Interesting question. I suppose for me, it's probably about sharing information amongst disciplines. So with my design software, I can export the information to Revit, for example, but it's a little bit harder to get information back from Revit if somebody else makes a change, so I have to maybe manually update the model or change the calculation myself.

Dusty Rhodes  23:15 

And why is that? Is it the same software that they're using? Are they using a different software to you?

Ed Arnott  23:21 

It's different software packages, I think part of the problem is that different disciplines require fundamentally different things in their calculation. So in my field, electrical, a lot of what I do is it's nebulous. We don't look at the physical equipment, per se, we look at its capabilities. But we must also be aware that the physical size of our equipment has an impact on other disciplines. So we have to allow space, as Dara was saying for rises and opes. And that sort of thing. And if somebody decides that we have to have root cables through a different route, that means they have to be longer, which means we might have to redesign them, and so on.

Dusty Rhodes  24:04 

And how do you think that that problem can be solved? Well,

Ed Arnott  24:07 

I suppose if they were one overarching program that could do everything will be nice. I sometimes wonder if something like a VR system might help if you could get a virtual design team and actually visualize what you're designing. So if you could meet together and say, This is my system, this is where I think it needs to go, this is how much space I need. And then you could change the virtual models or suit and agree things that way rather than exchanging drawings and then going through another iteration.

Dusty Rhodes  24:40 

Dara, do you think that that idea of virtual reality will work across the various disciplines?

Darragh Ryan  24:45 

Yeah, it could work and raise an interesting point. But I think the key what what Ed is trying to say there and it's very important is how the different software packages talk to each other. And that could be something that's sure Repeat when it should be something that's improved. It isn't great. We have something now and IFC, which is generally a 3d model type that can be imported into most older software packages, but it's still not perfect. And I think discussion between different software companies on how they can work together and import and export compatible formats, that that's, that's clear. I also think one of the big things might be training, there's new software updates every year for all the programs, but there'll be new things on Revit that we won't be able to use, because we're not trained to use them, we don't know about them. So I think there needs to be a more proactive approach in the industry to train people up and keep developing that skill set, you know, so that when the new things become available, we can pick them up straight away and realize their advantages straight away. I think that's something that the industry could do better, maybe have a training group or society. I know there's, you know, obviously, it's stuff it with engineers, Ireland and death, but perhaps a dedicated digital one,

Dusty Rhodes  26:09 

Michael, do you find with different disciplines wanting to work with each other? And then of course, having different pieces of software or even within one discipline, you've got variants of software? How are you getting across this problem with the strategic plan at PM,

Michael O'Shaughnessy  26:25 

we would have multiple tools, like Autodesk is probably a big product that's on the market. But we would also have a hexagon products, which is a competitor. And particularly in the complex projects that we work in. Certain products are preferred in industry for delivering complex pharma lines, for instance, whereas you know, Autodesk is probably the more collaborative suite, we go to great lengths to get coordination and collaboration happening between our disciplines. And I suppose, where information is not fully translatable, we've developed other processes to gather information from the specific tools to ensure that they are available to those who need it. And but it does take it takes a lot of people. And it takes good processes to ensure that that collaboration happens. And it doesn't come cheap, you know. And those processes, I suppose, are continuously improving. We'd have a team of people, part of our digital team working constantly on developing and improving those processes, ensure that we stick with what's going on in the market.

Dusty Rhodes  27:31 

Time is one thing and money is another and I'm quite sure that you find that people are in another area. Do you find that there is a reluctance for people to learn new digital tools?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  27:43 

No, I would think I would think there's a great lot of frustration in industry. And the demands external demands on on individuals, just due to the workload that's out there at the moment is probably tremendous. So people want to do better, and they want to get to work quicker. There's no doubt about that. And, you know, when this new technology comes, people really really do embrace it as what our experience is and you know, always are willing to go that extra go that extra effort to you know, upskill and develop their skills to understand what's now available in the market and how they can make life a little easier for themselves. I suppose.

Dusty Rhodes  28:24 

I'd like to wrap up today by giving each of you a chance to ask each other across questions, because I'm sure when you're listening to what everybody else has been saying that might be stuck in your head that you want to ask each other. Dara, is there anything you'd like to ask add or to ask Michael?

Darragh Ryan  28:38 

Yeah, Ed, obviously, coordination with m&e is a huge part of what we do. And the big thing that we find is there is a detachment between the consultants, the m&e, consultants and the contractors who are doing the work on site. You know, it seems that the consultants don't fully do the spatial design really of where docks need to go and it's more about performance spec. And I'm wondering how could we bring that design process in say mechanical electrical forward so that it could be coordinated at an earlier stage? Would it be worthwhile for clients to get you know, the m&e contractors in earlier as opposed to waiting for, you know, site to to happen, you know, to work alongside the design process.

Ed Arnott  29:29 

I can see some mileage in that I've had one project in particular where a building design was completed. And I was expected to find a way to get the m&e services from the basement to some heat pumps on the roof, with absolutely no service rises in the entire building. So I think you're right, possibly, some early discussions would help. And I suppose this goes back to my idea of virtual reality, the VR that you can talk through these things and maybe shift things around within your Virtual Building before you start drawing up plans.

Darragh Ryan  30:07 

Yeah, that's that's a good point, then for Michael, it seems that digitalization is more industry led, then legislation lead at the moment. And I think that's largely driven by what saves money we will use. So what do you think has been the biggest advancement quite recently in either your strategy or, or in digitalization that you that you can see, I guess,

Michael O'Shaughnessy  30:35 

access to information is probably been, you know, the the cloud really has transformed things. It's not long ago, since you know, every office in the world certainly in Dublin had a huge server room where, you know, you needed to be in the office, you needed to be on the network, to access files, access information, we've got people spread across the world, working in the same environment in the same space, and they're getting instant updates, information is updating in real time from, you know, locations right across so that what the cloud has has changed has just, you know, Ben, probably been the biggest transformation, I suppose. Yeah.

Darragh Ryan  31:17 

And just to add to that, I suppose it also has helped projects. I remember in the past, you know, when there wasn't the proper BIM system, and you know, file sharing system, you could have one set of consultants, whether they're destructure, or architect or whatever, working with revision six, and suddenly, actually, revision 10 is the latest revision. So having a kind of cloud based BIM service for a project as well has eliminated that from what it used to be, you know, so there's one true copy. And that's the latest file.

Dusty Rhodes  31:50 

Can I throw in a question for Ed, because we're talking about the cloud and everything being available everywhere at every time? Ed, you were saying that the software that you use tremble is based on the actual computer and getting updates doesn't happen as quick as you might have in the cloud? Do you have problems like that and keeping you up to speed with working with other people using that same software?

Ed Arnott  32:12 

Well, that's the program, but the files upon which you're working are obviously stored anywhere you like. So those can be on a project server, and often our

Dusty Rhodes  32:23 

Ra. Okay, see, you get around it that way. Edie? Have you got a question for Michael, or a question for Derek,

Ed Arnott  32:30 

I suppose. Probably best to excellent. Michael. With a design project, obviously, we've been discussing a lot about the upfront design and how we can deliver, say, a completed building. When it comes to the finished product. What happens with your, your as built drawings? Is there a way in which digitization can make the handover package better? So all the documentation, for example, for the end user or for the local authority, or whomever?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  33:06 

Tag said? That's a good question. It's certainly something that I spent a lot of time working on in recent times. So it's very fresh, in my mind, absolutely a. So the work we do typically upfront by developing the design, harvesting the data out of the design tools, and we we package that data and information into our portals. When we get to construction stage, we use digital applications to manage the inspection processes. And what we're doing in many cases, we're actually automatically populating some of the inspection forms from the data that's harvest added design. So you're, instead of using the old notepad or the the clipboard, where you're manually type writing in figures and tag numbers of equipment, and for part of the inspection processes, that's now all automated into the into the form. So an inspector will arrive to site, he's got a certain amount of inspections to do and all the forms are partially pre populated. And all they got to do is execute this step. So with that, then the asbestos and the inspection records all form part of the turnover package, because they're in a digital environment. And the models are all in a 3d environment that gets turned over as a combined package and ultimately then populates the operations and maintenance software package that they use for operating the system. The real value in that is is if something fails, or they have a maintenance strategy, they can go back and see who inspected a particular instrument or a particular piece of equipment when it was inspected by who what tests what were the figures and not shoot informed and how and when they might maintain a piece of equipment or roped off, you know, replace piece of equipment or service piece of equipment through the operation of the of the facility that they're working in. So it's just huge advancements in that space. But we probably have a lot more to do.

Dusty Rhodes  35:02 

Michael, I'll wrap up with yourself. Do you have a question for Edie or Dara?

Michael O'Shaughnessy  35:08 

Yeah, I got I'm not sure where to start, but I suppose maybe. Maybe for, for for Dara. Obviously, quality assurance now is a big thing. Certainly in our industry, I suspect it's the same as yours. And I'm a great believer in offsite manufacturing, do you find you have good quality processes or good digital quality processes for your product? Because obviously, when something gets shipped out your facility and lands on site, what's your kind of view on that?

Darragh Ryan  35:40 

Exactly? Yeah. So look, we've we've improved that massively over the last couple of months. But we've we're introduced a digital process here where each panel gets a QR code, and a QR code is stuck onto that panel with a sticker. Every time that panel goes through a different process in the factory, that he is rolling, that's when the QR code is stuck on, then it goes to assembly. And then it goes to add insulation and boarding and things like that, every time it's scanned and more information is imported in. And then eventually, when it comes out the other side of the factory and loaded onto a trailer before it's loaded. It's also scanned. So when you scan that panel, you can see who rolled it, who assembled it, who put the boards on what time what they when it was loaded on the truck when it was delivered to site. So it follows that process through and we know exactly, you know, it ties back to your quality process. But you know, who who did it? And where the responsibility were, if there's any problem, where was the breakdown. And then, you know, like the the processes then that you have talked about filling in the inspection forms. We also have something very similar. It's an app for site inspections, where we can take a photo, and we can drop a pin on the drawing. And it's all on the app. So the photo is at the pin. And there's a small comment, for example, please insert a new screw or something like that, you know, so we've got a full quality process that brings in the digital side of things that really benefits the end user as well because they have a higher quality product. Well,

Dusty Rhodes  37:19 

I think it might be fair to say that you're all very much proponents of digitization, but more collaboration, and more things working together would be helpful. Michael was shocked to see digital lead for construction pm group, Dara Ryan, Design Manager at Horizon off site, and Ed Arnett from MMA consulting. Thank you so much to you all, for joining us today. If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast because you'll find show notes and link details in the description area of your podcast player right now. Our amplified podcast was produced by dustpod.io for engineers journal, you will find advanced episodes on our website at engineers ireland.ie or just press follow on your podcast player to get our next episode automatically altered next time for me just erodes. Thanks for listening

Data centres are a fast-growing sector in engineering but can also be incredibly fast projects with timelines as short as a year. How do you work at that speed and still deliver quality and innovation?

Winthrop Technologies has grown from being a MEP business in the nineties to delivering turnkey data centres all across Europe today, with a turnover expected to exceed €1bn in 2022.

What is it like to lead a company working at this scale and pace?  CEO Anne Dooley has been a director with the firm since 1997. She shares some of the progress they have made and factors that helped them grow. You’ll hear about problems in setting up data centres, the timelines demanded by clients, and what to do when problems arise. 

Anne also reflects on the importance of teams and how Winthrop lay out a path for progression, career development and hands-on mentoring.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Topics we discussed include:

• How engineering is a portable career
• The challenges of working across an entire project
• Dealing with timelines and demanding clients
• The role of 3D modelling and prefabrication
• How seasoned experience and youthful drive works for them
• Describes the flat structure and Winthrop and the reasoning behind it
• Ways you can stay on top of your game
• How to incorporate sustainability into high performance building design
• Anne’s view on the biggest challenge facing engineering

Quotes

We deliver everything, the building structure, architecture, the MEP so we can move all the pieces around and be a good deal more nimble.

If the client has an issue, our first reaction is to not to sit down and write a letter. Our first reaction is to say, okay this has happened, we have to deliver it together. Let’s figure out how to make it better.

The ethos of our success, is partnership with our clients in partnership with our team, all delivering together

I love my job, I love my career, I love the delivery of it

Data centres are the next utility. We're not going to put our phones in the bin. We're not going to drive without Google Maps, or drop office software. The cloud requires a utility and that's why data centres exist

Power utilization and efficiency is hugely important and because they're very focused on that, data-centres are designed to be as energy efficient as possible

Guest details

Anne Dooley has been a director with Winthrop Technologies since 1997 and has helped the company grow from its MEP heritage to its current status as a leading provider of data-centres in Ireland and across Europe.  Anne leads 750 staff by example and is a huge believer in mentoring and career progression. This is a key demonstrable part of her company ethos.  She has also been credited with Businesswoman of the Year Award and recently was appointed CEO at Winthrop.

Contact details

https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-dooley-63248a12/

https://winthrop.ie/

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer.

https://www.engineersireland.ie/

 

Transcription text

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate automated transcript of the podcast.

Dusty Rhodes  0:01 

Right now on amplified the engineers general podcast, we're about to meet the CEO of Winthrop engineering. And Dooley

Anne Dooley  0:08 

is a physical world that we inhabit. And there's a framework and there's calculations and details that are required, you have to have a knowledge of how things function and how things are delivered under the preciseness about it. But there's also you know, an attitude of mind a curiosity or willingness to learn, as you go past that technical training, you know, when people come as far as as they're learning inside the environment, and they have that technical qualification.

Dusty Rhodes  0:39 

Hello, there, my name is Dusty Rhodes, and you're welcome to amplified the engineers journal podcast, where we speak with leading members of our community of creative professionals about how engineers are delivering interesting and sustainable solutions for society. Joining us today is the CEO of a company who since 1995, has gone from being a fairly traditional Irish MEP business, to becoming one of the leading data center developers across Europe, currently working in around nine European countries. And some of the biggest names in the business are counted as their clients. The company employs around 750 people and in 2022, they're expected to turn over to top 1 billion euro. To share some of the secrets of this success. The lady who has been a director of the company since 1997, is with us now. And I'm delighted to welcome to the podcast, the CEO of Winthrop, engineering, and Dooley, and how are you? Great, thanks. Tell me how did you get into this engineering business in the first place.

Anne Dooley  1:35 

Um, I chose to do engineering in college in 1984, when I finished school, I grew up in the west of Ireland near tomb coffin, and the family of seven, my dad was farmer, and wasn't a lot else to do. So, you know, school education. I'm number six or seven, three of my older siblings have done engineering and I just lack of imagination tick the same box. And I think if I was to think back, you know, I was reasonably good at maths, I said, well, the pilot probably could do it. But it was more if you think back to life in the 80s, that there was no workload or employment, or it felt like a very grim place. And you felt that if you graduated, you had to travel and engineering was one of those sort of portable degrees, you can go and work anywhere in the world. So that was the thinking,

Dusty Rhodes  2:21 

and what would you describe yourself as a kind of a creative person who likes to look at something and solve the problem? Creative,

Anne Dooley  2:31 

I think, um, you know, I like to see things done, I like to progress, things are positive, I like to move forward and easily, easily enough bored just so you know, I like doing things delivering, like completing things as a great satisfaction in any job where you're creating something, you know, whether it's a design creative, or you know, engineering, what we do now, you know, delivering a project and there's a real teammate ethos about the teams get bigger, as the projects get larger, we're still a big team, and, you know, whatever level you in the group, you know, bring forward your best talents, I guess the way coaches and teams work, you know, so that's, that's, I think, that's, that's what I find drives me and that's where I get enthusiasm from. Want

Dusty Rhodes  3:09 

to ask you a little bit about that, and coaching and teams just a little later. But first, tell me about the company because you specialize in data centers. Now, that's what you do, but you have a very kind of precise speciality, if you like, what is that?

Anne Dooley  3:21 

Okay, so I suppose the company was founded by Barry English in 1995. And he set it up as a as an MEP subcontractor. So we would specialize in doing mechanical electrical, work in industrial name, not industrial, many officers. So not domestics, not particularly, you know, not housing. And then we progressed to do a lot of hospital work. And hospital work is a great similarity, because it's very precise. It's a technical delivery, you learn another good discipline there how to work and you know, working around live environments, if we do in hospital extensions, or whatever. And we progress there for them. We got an opportunity in 2015, to work on the data centers with an American client, but they wanted the full delivery, not just the MEP, they wanted the the building delivered as well as the building work. And we had done some in the number in previous number of years, a number of data centers where we have provided the full delivery, MEP CSA, turnkey delivery. Why does that happen? Sometimes, because the data centers, it's very technical delivery, the MEP is the lead side of it. And sometimes that the building and the other work can be somewhat peripheral, depending on the design of the data center. So data centers are by their very nature, it's all about it's all about power and cooling. And and you're providing a premises that can provide consistency and continuity of power and cooling at all times. That's the key. And then the building is designed around. And so the MVP and understanding the MVP is very important. So we had done throughout the 2000s. A number of turnkey data center delivers but got an opportunity with an American client. They were expanding into Europe, they're looking for a partner. They interviewed a few people, a lot of come And he's larger than us. But they, they liked our attitude. And they were coming into Europe to develop them, they needed to move fast, and they wanted a partner that could move with them quickly. And that was us. And we're still working with them to this day, which have been due to all the data center bills in Europe. And then off of that we delivered we delivered strongly, they get some big opportunities, they took us along on their opportunities, and we delivered for them and the data center world is very, very positive environment in that they are projects are tend to be a year to 18 months long, fast delivery, and it is all about delivery. And all of our clients focus because they are looking to the data centers aren't don't exist, you know, that their demand is driven by all of our iPhones, all of our software solution, all the different types of reasons that we all need the cloud and all the rest of it. And we saw during the pandemic, how much the cloud was a necessity to our world. So so there and to develop that out there in their businesses or software companies, or the the end users there, they've got to plan all that out. So they're, they're looking to your to our to the things that demand will be, and they need to have the they need to have certainty of delivery of the physical infrastructure of the data center. And and we have to be focused on that. And things happen, things go wrong, something is late. So what we're really good at is reconfiguring our timelines or our you know, re looking at our program, we scheduling re sequencing. And because we deliver everything, the building structure, architecture, the MVP, we can move all the pieces around super good deal more nimble, it may be stemmed from our background as as on the MVP, but that's that's kind of a you know, an agile in this and the flexibility that we haven't lost. And again, partnering with our clients understanding what their needs are and appreciating their requirements have delivered on time and doing whatever it takes to try the system on that journey. And you know, being creative thinking about different solutions. You know, we're not people to sit down with something, something happened and you know, the client has has a, maybe an issue with the delivery of a piece of equipment they're supplying, you're our first reaction is to sit down and write or letter, our first reaction, say, Okay, this has happened here, we have to deliver it together, let's figure out how to make it better.

Dusty Rhodes  7:09 

How big a difference does it make the fact that you are able to oversee everything rather than working only half the project or having to work with several different teams

Anne Dooley  7:18 

doing the turnkey delivery. And sometimes we also do the design, which is another piece of it, what it does is it means that you can manage all the pieces and you don't have any resistance if every participant in a in a team or in a project is trying to deliver therapies as best they can in the second lane. And, you know, that's understandable. But you know, if we're sitting above, and we're managing all the pieces, we can redirect and re sequence them. And we you know, to see the better to see the better solution, rather than saying, Well, you know, we're going to carry on and finish the building here. And, you know, we'll just give you access when it suits as far as we're saying, Well, look, we need to deliver here, this is the best sequence of events, and you know, it might not be the most efficient for your little piece, but for the overall piece, it's going to help us deliver. So I think that's what we're good at, and that we try and concentrate on

Dusty Rhodes  8:02 

that efficiency kind of translating to speed. So when you're doing a turnkey Data Center, one of the things you pride yourselves on is how fast you can go from Greenfield to delivery, how fast

Anne Dooley  8:14 

it depends on the size of the project, I mean, the timelines, timelines, that our clients business needs demand are very strict, and they're very tight. But we're also very sensible, you know, we don't commit to dates that we can deliver on, you know, they're a year to 18 months to deliver the product deliver the size of the project we're delivering is typical. And what we try and do is we try and do detailed schedule of all the activities and all the the the inputs and the outputs. And you know, and clearly show something that can be delivered, what we like to do is to get the right time to get the reliable time. Our clients are not interested in somebody come along and being here on and suggesting really short timelines that they then can't deliver to their end customers, because that's to nobody's benefit.

Dusty Rhodes  8:58 

One of the things that really speeds things up that I believe you're quite proud of is prefabrication. What can you tell me about that?

Anne Dooley  9:05 

The key developments in the industry over the last number of years will be the use of 3d drawings. Moving on from there to building information modeling, where you're are really detailing out in 3d, the project very, very early on from the very early design stages. So you're picking up all the difficult pieces, picking up all the clashes and all the things that might not work to your team on site don't have to encounter that they can just go to site and build. And the prefabrication piece allows you at a very minimal level, you know doing some basic elements of cyber law to pre prefabricated electric electrical switch rooms and get them completed in a container and all the component elements tested and delivered. And you can have that happening in tandem while you're doing building the building. So you can imagine that you can move that prefabricated piece of kit into position so you're not waiting for the building build And then to start assembling it. And you know, it's always easier to work in a factory environment, if you're doing that kind of technical piece of delivery than any of the working in a greenfield site. And you can't work in Greenfield site until it's been, you know, until it's watertight until it's, you know, dust free and all the rest of it. So you can work in it in a, if you're working in a production environment to get much better delivery.

Dusty Rhodes  10:20 

I'm interested in how the company will describe a lot of the projects that you do is mission critical. Now, anybody in engineering will say that everything they do is mission critical. How do you define mission critical,

Anne Dooley  10:30 

as well as mission critical, it's what the date is, you know, it describes the data center industry really doesn't mean that it's that it's, it's a critical, it's critical, its core, it's 100% uptime piece of it that's required. I think that's what drives the mission critical. I know, sometimes people consider some, maybe some, you know, medical institutions or Michigan critical because they have to have that under present uptime as well. But we tend to refer to ourselves mainly as you know, turnkey data center infrastructure delivery, that's what we do. And the turnkey nature is a piece that I enjoy, particularly because, you know, we have clients where we've done the design for them. So we have the greenfield site, we've done the design, we've applied for the permit, we've taken on the the subcontractors that we need to deliver the job, we've managed the team, we've delivered it, and we've commissioned it and handed over, and that's a great delivery, you know, it wasn't there before announced the whole thing created the children involved. And but the the industry is very technical, you know, we employ a lot of engineers across, you know, mechanical, electrical civil structure, guys with design experience, guys, the worst one to work in the BIM department, we take on 20 graduates this year, I on a graduate program, we had I think, 12 interns in the summer, you know, engineering, I just And that's, you know, we're happy to take them on happy to take them on either in here in Ireland, and we're working, we're live in a countries in Europe, I happen to be doing a bit of work in Ireland at the moment, but you know, our businesses Dublin based, but we're working throughout Europe, all of our projects are served by our office here, our projects are live in Germany, in Sweden, in Holland, in Warsaw, in Poland, you know, so with lots of opportunities and opportunities to travel to offer people, which I think is interesting.

Dusty Rhodes  12:12 

I think one of the things that when Trump is proud of is that there's a mix of very experienced people and young talent who are coming into the company, and there seems to be a real ethos of a kind of a mentorship program within the company. Is that true?

Anne Dooley  12:25 

Yes. And we've always been like that we've always taken on a number of graduates always, you know, have a number of people who work with us who joined us after college and stayed with us, but we're always trying to, you know, incorporate and, and add members to our team, you know, I have one with a very senior design engineer here. And I mean, you know, there's, there's no lack of enthusiasm in his ability. And, you know, I'm watching the sharing of knowledge with young graduates as they come through, you know, the interesting isn't, I think, especially when people first come out of college, you know, they're anxious to see what it is they're going to be to do what it is they're going to be expected to deliver. And they like the practicality of this industry. And you know, I feel for ourselves also, it's such a technical environment that we live in a you know, it's a high tech industry, high tech deliverables. And with clients who expect a very, very slick product at the end of it, they expect it to be done and done. Well, you know, they're great clients to work for demanding, but that's what they're expecting from for their, from their partnership with us.

Dusty Rhodes  13:23 

One of the things that strikes me about the company is that the company is still owned by the directors. And speaking to you even though you've got 750 employees, you sound like you know, every single one of them do you think kind of kind of owning the company connects you better with the people who are working with you.

Anne Dooley  13:43 

You know, I think I've grown with the company, you know, we all have grown with the company has grown significantly stronger in the last number of years. But uh, you know, we don't like the, the ethos of our, you know, in partnership with our clients in partnership with our, with our, with our team and our colleagues here, you know, we delivered together for myself, I think the team ethos of success is the is the key support for Winthrop that I see, you know, it's our foundation and delivering together and, you know, vicissitudes arrived in whatever form in the course of delivery of a project but you know, rising above them, dealing with them dealing with them positively, you know, openness to engage learning new things knowing that you don't always know all the answers yourself but when your colleagues might that kind of a kind of learning that kind of partnership is something that I think we always tried to promote and you know, we feel that bringing in younger new graduates you know, people are a source we add some joy in there a couple of weeks ago and look, you can see the keenness and the interest they have and the projects are large, they're exciting to work on. And you know, you have your piece in them. And I started up my own career that way working on a small piece of a large project but you know, you got to deliver that piece and then you then you then you get you get the confidence and and you get the experience and you get the exposure to these large projects.

Dusty Rhodes  15:00 

learning new things and just constantly learning about what's going on around you is, is great. But at the same time, if you don't know something, and there's somebody above you, and you don't want to look stupid, I'm a great believer in the in the phrase, there's no such thing as a stupid question. How do you feel that because you're at the top of the tree in the company, would you prefer people to ask those kind of questions? Or would you prefer to them to do something else?

Anne Dooley  15:26 

Well, I suppose first of all, I'm not at the top of any tree, because we're very flat structure, I like that we don't have that kind of atmosphere or feeling within the company. Obviously, the projects have a management team and there was obviously people in charge and managers in the different levels. And I got asked one day, who's the most important person and you know, if you're looking for a project team was most important on any given day, it's, it's, you know, it's different people, it's safety officers are vitally important, vitally important, making sure that people go go to work safe and come home safe, and I help the teams deliver a safe project, make sure that the safety training is in calculated, and all the troops that were that arrive on to the site, on another day, you know, it's the mechanical engineer, or the civil structural engineer or whatever, you know, it very, so everybody's got everybody's important in their own day. QoS is conscious of doing our our back office here is if you don't have administration, if you don't have finance, nobody gets paid, and nobody pays you then you've got also have your purchasing team, you know, putting the putting the purchase order out there ordering equipment, ordering materials. So, you know, everybody has their, their part to play. And the question you asked me was, yeah, you know, I completely, completely encouraged that, um, you know, there's always new things to be learned, it's, you know, we have a number of different clients, and they were building data centers, delivering data centers for them, every client has different needs, different work, different requirements. So start off with an open and engagement. And, you know, you know, three letter acronyms are the bane of every industry. So, you know, when you come along with a new client, they'll have a different one that you haven't heard of, ask the question, you know, be prepared to look a bit, you know, not be prepared to ask question I didn't honestly Oh, okay. And that's really obvious. And, you know, I think that, you know, if you don't have that in an organization, you have nothing, you have to have that piece where people are prepared to, you know, admit to what they don't know, go and researchers and come back. The answers won't always be, you know, as easily as that easily found as that but you know, have the interest to go. And besides the

Dusty Rhodes  17:24 

speaking of three letter acronym, CPT is very important in any organization, do you have any kind of a path for continuous professional development?

Anne Dooley  17:32 

We certainly do we have, we have a, we have a subcommittee here who have supported it, right through the business over the last number of years. And, yeah, and continuing to do so. And we use our CPD team as well, to help with a lot when we were designing our recent graduate recruitment program, we were formalizing that into a two year program and the CPD team were, you know, they were very instrumental in helping us share the areas there. And we've obviously gotten a lot of advice in that from EI over the years.

Dusty Rhodes  17:58 

Learning and recognition is also very important part of your career development. And you have won Businesswoman of the Year. How did that chair? Why did you get involved in that?

Unknown Speaker  18:11 

Why did I get involved in that? Ah, mature I am

Dusty Rhodes  18:15 

was one of those things where somebody entered you, and you just had to go for it? Yeah, I

Anne Dooley  18:19 

mean, you know, the, the diversity agenda in the industry is high, you know, if there could be a bias towards hiring women engineers, there would be there's a bias towards hiring engineers full stop, it's trying to find enough of them. You know, I still don't see a lot of women coming through. And I don't think, you know, at the employer level, I think the difficulty is filing finding talent for stuff from wherever it comes. I think, you know, we do support AI, particularly do a lot of work at the schools at the lower level to try and encourage people into it, you know, it's certainly from an employer perspective, I think thing for us is to is to show the attractiveness of the industry in the data center industry in terms of the end to end construction of the data center, and then on from there from the operation and the and the support structure, they have to feel that there is a continuity and that it's a you know, it's a great industry to work in. You know, I love my job, I love my career, I love the delivery of it. I like being part of that that kind of positive program and it's constantly as well, if you're at the stage where you're you're involved in particular projects, you know, it's new teams every year 18 months because the project completed you move on different not necessarily a full new team, but you're getting to know new people and it's very multicultural, which is again another even in Ireland and especially as we work throughout Europe, you know, working alongside different people, you learn different things, not just in your work, but just generally you know, you it's good, I think it's good, good all around good for people the education and for instance interest.

Dusty Rhodes  19:45 

I'm guessing you have had a good experience with engineers Ireland, can you tell me just one of the useful things that engineers Ireland has done for you personally?

Anne Dooley  19:55 

For me, personally, I think there's there's a there's a recognition In for the role of the engineer, an engineer Ireland, you know, gives that a give that a star, his understanding, you know, as a professional engineer is a title that is used a lot. And I think engineers Ireland have have really focused on trying to develop that out and and I know, a number of years ago but I would have felt they were very focused on the more they civil structural on the that side of the world, but I think they've they've broadened out their communication so that, you know, it's across the full spectrum, you know, including including on the IT side, because that's a huge draw for the engineers the future. And, you know, I think we want to get people into our side of the industry, but we, you know, we want to draw, attract people in and I think engineers, Ireland do a superb job on that.

Dusty Rhodes  20:42 

Let me ask you, kind of going back to the day to day business of the of the company back to data centers, because one of the problems with data centers is they get a bad rap, especially, you know, what Sustainability and Environment? How are you thinking about that problem? Now, how do you how do you counter that?

Anne Dooley  20:58 

Well, I suppose there that the way we see them is that they're the next utility, you know, so we're not going to put our phones in the bin, you know, we're not, you know, we're not going to start to drive them without Google Maps, you know, or whatever product you want to use, you know, all of that software as a service, we all have, you know, companies are operating Microsoft 365, and the clouds, all of those things, you know, lots of different deliveries, they all require a utility to show them that that's why the data centers exist. And then I mean, they're designed to be very efficient, because the main cost to the operator is the use of power. So they've got a P OE power usage, power utilization, efficiency, calculation. And that's very important in the industry, because they're very focused on that, because they're so that they're, they're designed to be as, as energy efficient as possible, for sure. They are new infrastructure. So for sure that they're not, they're not neutral on the environment. But it's a positive industry, with a lot of progressive end user clients who are focused on buying where they can and buying forward and renewable power, which is helping that side of the industry, and also a lot of focus now on, you know, trying to get at the circular economy in terms of the carbon, the amount of carbon that's in the industry, and a lot of analysis now is happening on that to see how we can reduce that as a bill forward. So I think, you know, as an industry, it's a very developed industry, and it's very conscious of its sustainability demands. And, again, I see the workforces of the future, you know, they want to see that develop, and that aspiration within us as a company and within our clients, they can see that they can see that focus on the sustainability piece.

Dusty Rhodes  22:36 

It's a very fast moving industry, and things do change. And like you guys have been on things early, you're one of the first to get into Bi M. Yeah. Where do you kind of how do you keep yourself on top of what's happening within your industry now,

Anne Dooley  22:50 

you know, we've got a lot of great talent within the company, spread across Ireland and Europe. And we've got a lot of really good talent, you know, we're not, we're not, we're a Dublin based company, but we're not by no means exclusively Irish is our staff. So a lot of really good, qualified, experienced engineers, conscious of areas coming into the company, project managers, bringing with them their knowledge and their experience, and, you know, we're happy to invest, we're happy to develop those, those skills and, and share them across the company. And, you know, we're very well, we're very good as if we, you know, for on a particular project, and so Sweden or something, and we and we develop something up there that helps the work, you know, a process or safety procedure, then we'll make sure that we rolled it out across all the companies so that we have a similar delivery, and we have a consistent delivery for all of our clients plus all of our projects,

Dusty Rhodes  23:44 

a lot of the projects you are involved in, I mean, it would be fair to describe it as high performance building design, really? How do you make sustainability a part of that high performance?

Anne Dooley  23:55 

Well, I think there's a lot of measures that are coming in to the, you know, sustainability starts back up a bit design starts back at the location of the of the of the projects, we don't, we're not always responsible for the design, very often our clients will design the buildings, and then we work with them from there, but I think sustainability is is embedded in all of our, all of our clients, briefs to their design teams, you know, whether we're on the design team or not, when we look at when we look at the design, when we look at how we're going to develop it, you know, we're looking at the the most sustainable solution and the most energy efficient solution on the project because the clients are interested in the power usage, because that's the most expensive part of them and, you know, the demands there. So they want to be that to be used as efficiently as possible. And as I said, also, there's a lot of a lot of new knowledge coming into the industry a lot, a lot of assessments, and a lot of focus on you know, managing your carbon footprint or your embedded carbon throughout the life of the project to see if you can try and reduce that

Dusty Rhodes  24:59 

we The world is changing a lot as we go into the mid 20s. We've war, the supply issues, power of the cost of economic turndown is the topic of the day. Just from your point of view, what's the biggest challenge that's facing engineering?

Anne Dooley  25:15 

Well, I suppose we're a people business, you know, what we do is it's a service industry. So for what we're doing, so we're, we're a management team, from project managers, projects, project managers, right down to the supervisory level within the company. And so it's all for us, it's, it's, it's developing the talent and attracting the talent and making sure we have the best so we can deliver the best or at all times, you know, so, you know, the the second type of colleagues that we look for, that's going to be that, you know, you have to have that positive mindset for delivery, client focused, you know, no matter what level you're coming in, and you know, that the the, the engineering graduates for sure, have to have the qualifications. And the technical qualification is very important. But then after that, it's attitude. And, you know, attitude goes an awful long way, in any business, as you know, and, you know, the support teams that we build around the engineers and the construction teams, but again, you know, a positive supportive environment. And that's, that's what we try to develop.

Dusty Rhodes  26:11 

And when you talk about attracting talent, what kind of things do you do to attract

Anne Dooley  26:17 

I suppose we're very quiet as a company, we don't do much advertising. So, you know, I'm trying to talk to you here today is trying to reach out to the potential graduates of the future to look to consider our area of operations as as a possible graduate career because we can offer them a golden past and longevity of a career, consistent growth, offer some travel if they want to do that, or indeed, but also training and mentorship.

Dusty Rhodes  26:49 

Duly it's been an absolute pleasure. And thank you for taking the time to join us on the podcast today. Thank you. If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast today, you'll find the show notes and link details in the description area of your podcast player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and advanced episodes on our website at engineers ireland.ie. Our amplified podcast today was produced by dustpod.io for engineers journal. If you'd like more episodes, do click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all our past and future shows automatically. Well, the next time for myself just thrilled. Thank you for listening

On this episode, we hear from an engineer at the top of his game. Ciaran McGovern, gives us an inside look at how Tobin’s long-established civil and structural engineering practice delivers for clients. 

You’ll hear about some of the firm’s most cutting-edge projects – including the world’s largest sports air dome – and what’s ahead for the engineering sector in terms of Ireland’s climate action plan. The conversation also touches on the long-term impacts of Covid19 both on workplace culture and regional demands on transportation patterns, the power grid and internet connectivity. 

Ciaran also reflects on how Engineers Ireland’s professional development programmes have kept him engaged and why being unafraid to speak up and ask questions is so important to career advancement – and enjoyment!

Topics we discussed include:

• The Sport Ireland Campus in Dublin: A facility whose design and infrastructure supports everything from beginning gymnastics to elite rugby.
• The NUI Galway Connacht GAA Sports Air Dome: The world’s largest such facility, housing a full-size field, track and stands, also convertible within 72 hours to a fully functional conference arena unique on the island of Ireland.
• How aspirational mentors can inspire through their example, guidance and support.
• Why retention of talented staff is paramount and how there is a workplace emphasis on providing opportunities for growth and professional enrichment.
• Tobin’s DECOM (Direction, Competence, Opportunity, Motivation) framework provides a structured approach to securing the right mix of technical and interpersonal/ communications to best serve client needs.
• The ways Covid19 precipitated changes that were long in coming for Ireland’s traditional, centralized hub-and-spoke economy. 
• Long-term adoption of remote work, demand for ever-better broadband, commute patterns and infrastructure to support electric cars. 
• About Tobin’s direct involvement with Ireland’s Climate Action Plan, substantial improvements to power grid infrastructure and civic engagement.
• Finding ways to keep projects on track, maintain collaboration and provide necessary feedback to people “putting their heads down” remotely.
• Why Ciaran is especially appreciative of how professional development services have invited him to challenge himself to continue growing and acquiring new skills.

Guest details

Ciaran has over 25 years of experience in building and civil engineering project delivery within the Irish consultancy sector and was appointed as Managing Director in 2020. He has previously held the position of Operations Director and that of Commercial Director within TOBIN. 

Ciaran continues to advise a broad range of Clients on procurement and risk strategies in the management of works contracts for both traditional (employer) and design build (DB) forms. He works closely with internal and Client multidisciplinary teams to deliver projects in the sports capital, transportation, environment, civil engineering, building and infrastructure sectors.

Contact details

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cmcgoverntobin/
https://www.tobinconsultingengineers.com/

Irelands Climate Action Plan 2021
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/6223e-climate-action-plan-2021/

Video highlights about the story of Tobin’s NUI Galway Connacht
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDXzIKc0L54

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/

Transciption text

For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate automated transcript of the podcast.

Dusty Rhodes  0:02 

Right now on amplified the engineers general podcast, we're about to meet the managing director of Tobin Consulting Engineers, Ciaran McGovern,

Ciaran McGovern  0:11 

we were talking earlier on the fashion sports campus of a very, very large building. But Dublin in cannot, they would never have been able to get themselves to a position of providing a fixed structure. We looked at the capsule envelope that the client had in that particular situation and is a phrase we had to make our brains hurt a little bit in terms of covering that pitch and providing a controlled environment and a training area that people could use irrespective of the weather in Israel.

Dusty Rhodes  1:01 

Hello, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to the engineers Ireland podcast where we speak with our community of creative professionals across the country, about how engineers are delivering sustainable solutions for society both now and in the future. Today, we're finding out more about the man at the top of one of our long standing Civil and Structural engineering practices with a 70 year pedigree. It's Tobin Consulting Engineers, a sharp intellect endlessly curious, and always with an eye on the future. It's a pleasure to welcome managing director Ciaran McGovern. How you doing Ciaran?

Ciaran McGovern  1:34 

Hi, dusty, good to talk to you today.

Dusty Rhodes  1:36 

Indeed, Listen, tell me a lot of people kind of forget when you're at the top of an organization that somehow you had to get a break into the business. Do you remember that far back?

Unknown Speaker  1:47 

I think it was probably a neighbor of mine originally was a civil engineer, retired gentleman from the UK who came to live beside us when I was in my formative years, I think back, you know, in secondary school and got to hear loads about what civil engineering was all about. And, you know, I think probably developed from there. And I think I was lucky in a lot of ways just to in that I had a good idea of what I wanted to do going into my leaving search. I think a lot of people these days have huge choice that creates its own dynamic that as well does not

Dusty Rhodes  2:16 

make it makes it very easy way you win, you know, but what I'm trying to find out is, how did you know what was it about engineering that he went on? That's what I want to do?

Ciaran McGovern  2:27 

Well, I think I had a father as well, who always had an interest in the building industry, and probably gave me a nudge in that direction, too. But I think you have to be comfortable with the science side of it and matte side of it. And you know, you need to find those things, easy to deal with read odd, you know, now, if you were to ask me to spend a lot of time in languages and French and, and German, I'm very weak and all those things, you know, so you got to find your own your own slot, in terms of where you're, where you're comfortable, and I suppose comes up, but easier, then doesn't.

Dusty Rhodes  2:58 

So while we were all sitting there at the back of the class, and drawing out the name of whoever was the band of the day, and their logo, what were you drawing in your copy,

Ciaran McGovern  3:06 

I'm not too sure was a drawing at all, maybe other than it might have been sketching up something that was going on in the back of my mind or on the what's the next design or the next building or whatever it might be to go ahead and say notions of being an architect at one stage was probably had to get back into my box and just realize I was best at what I was planning to do and engineering.

Dusty Rhodes  3:26 

So it's always been there for you. And you, you ended up in Tobin and now you're the Managing Director, how did you get from there to where you are now?

Ciaran McGovern  3:33 

Yeah, I suppose. You know, I come in as a project engineer made about six years out in industry before he joined Tobin's at all, in both public and private sector in the local authorities. So I had somewhat of a blended approach before I've gotten here consulting engineering at all. And it's just a question of, I suppose, applying yourself every day, to the problems that are there in front of you. And I've got a few lucky breaks along the way, in terms of the the areas I was interested in, particularly on waste management and the circular economy, which were huge, you know, for a long period of time in Ireland, I suppose learning is been a big part for me as well, in terms of, you know, professional development that have gone through, spent less time on technical development, but also did an MBA back sort of what is it five years ago now at this stage six years ago. So you know, that really helped me make the decision as to whether to take the step into the DMD role.

Dusty Rhodes  4:17 

So when you are kind of coming up through the company, and you want to impress, and the various projects that you're working on was the one in particular that you look back at now. And you go, yeah, that was particularly good and particularly proud of that. What was it? Well, I

Ciaran McGovern  4:31 

think one of the ones we're most proud of the today would be, I suppose, the National Sports campus there in Dublin, you know, the National indoor arena, a lot of the infrastructural development that was done there because that has been set up to be right from the casual child's going to gymnastics from for the first time right through to the elite rugby are there on the campus, you know, it's right across society. There's there's an opportunity there to use those as well. That's one of the things about engineering, you know, you actually get to take something which is a germ are an idea in someone's head right through to seeing people using the facilities and enjoying them on a day to day basis. Yeah.

Dusty Rhodes  5:06 

You also mentioned having a mentor in what ways did a your mentor help you specifically?

Ciaran McGovern  5:12 

Well, I can think back to even back in 2014, I think I did some training with ucg, as it was at the time on managerial development, and it was only a one year course, remember, we overlapped with some MBA students, and it was probably enough for me at the time to say, I'm not ready to do that. But at the same time, it gave me an appetite for the managerial side as much as the technical side. That's what spurred me on to the MBA then in 2016. So sometimes you just need not just from a good mentor,

Dusty Rhodes  5:43 

I think you've just said it there. Because finding mentors is one thing finding a good one is where do you look for mentors?

Ciaran McGovern  5:51 

Yeah, well, I think I know, in our in our own business, we would recognize the value of that and try to build it in into the way we do our own day to day, I suppose performance management of our own staff. So we don't always use the phrase mentor per se. It's more around who's your manager? And are they the right fit for you? Are they giving you the right advice, so they help you develop your career? It's more in that space, rather than the former mentor title. I suppose we're dancing on the head of a pin in terms of words, but it's just that that's that's the approach we take in our business anyway.

Dusty Rhodes  6:24 

So from what I understand, then part of being in a management role with Tobin is that you also need to mentor the staff that you have, as well as just making sure that they're getting things done on time. Yeah, well,

Ciaran McGovern  6:36 

at our core, we're a learning organization just to hit it, where, essentially, we're there to provide advice to our clients as to how to problem solve and deal with the issues of the day, how to get from the germ, or the idea in somebody's mind, you take it from there all the way through the various stages of a project. So we need to have our own staff and headspace whereby they see themselves as problem solvers, they're innovative, and they're aware of what technically is going on out there in the market, and how they apply these solutions to the to the problems that are presented those as so it's a continuing professional development, that learning organization culture, is one that has to be there, right through a career to allow it to blossom. Certainly that's that's the approach we take with our business,

Dusty Rhodes  7:22 

antiquated approach to take as well. Do you think it's something common in engineering firms across the country or unusual,

Ciaran McGovern  7:27 

I think we certainly have had a culture within our business of taking that approach, because we've seen the value of you know, when you get good people, you hold on to them tightly, and you don't allow them to go anywhere else. And the only way you're going to do that is to give them a rich career path as they progress through the organization. Do we see evidence? Well, of course, you know, consulting engineering generally would be would be in that space, because it's not a very big industry, you know, so it's, it can't be too transactional in nature, and just say, We're breaking into a job and you're going again, and six months, and that comes back to bite you eventually because the the pool of talent out there isn't isn't that big.

Dusty Rhodes  8:02 

So these are the kinds of considerations because we all think about personal development and and, and training and, and further education, because we want to go up, you are up, you're at the top, when you're looking back down at the people who are coming behind you. I did what kind of things are you thinking about when you're thinking about personal development,

Ciaran McGovern  8:21 

one of the things we've really focused on in the last while and in my role as MD is to make sure the business is is looking closely at what is particular leadership development in particular. And that can be development in the tech space or in the managerial space. So we've invested a lot of time and effort in that we use a model called decom, direction, competence, opportunity, motivation. So that just provides a framework within which you know, you take a structured approach to this. And here's the engineer coming out to me now, again, because everything has to be a series of channels through which you go or ones and zeros that have to be met. Some of the easy parts of that are the technical development, you know, what is the business need, in terms of the skills that are out there in the marketplace these days? Are the solutions that the clients need to have solved. But I think that the more difficult one might be, what are the interpersonal skills and communication skills and professional development requirements have an individual member of staff because engineers by their by their nature will see I don't know how many, you know, but typically are not good at putting ourselves out there and talking to people we're more than I think we're happier to be in the in the back office, crunching the numbers and, you know, making it happen quietly. So I'm

Dusty Rhodes  9:33 

just kind of wondering from your point of view, what would you consider the most important trends in engineering at the moment?

Ciaran McGovern  9:40 

Ireland just generally is a traditional, I suppose, what would you call it a whole hub and spoke system in terms of transport planning out there? Dublin have to center the hub and all the spokes emanating out from that, and I think we've had successive development plans that have looked at the need for balanced regional development, and I think that's really starting to come to the fore. particularly as we emerge from COVID. And we can see that as a nation, we don't all have to be sitting in an office these days, we can work remotely. So I think, to learn the lessons of COVID is really a trend or something that we probably all need to, to grasp. Things like the National Broadband scheme nationally, that's been rolled out at the moment, I know, there's been some that are very strong advocates for it, and maybe some, maybe don't quite see the benefit of it. But if we can get to a point where, you know, people can work locally, live locally, be part of the community, you know, rather than spending hours in a car commuting every day, you know that that is going to also feed the dynamic of promoting electric vehicles, you got to get rid of range anxiety, then you're not going to be so worried about having to commute for two hours a day. So these these things build on each other. So that balance regional development is certainly one that I think there's huge mileage for for the country to get his head around. What does the country

Dusty Rhodes  10:55 

need to do in order to do that regional development, because everything is very Dublin focused, and we've seen Dark plus, now they're extending it to the west of the city, they're talking about extending the trauma to the airport and anti sores. I'm beyond where do rural areas get a lock in? How should they be treated?

Ciaran McGovern  11:13 

Well, if you just if you think about the way we can work today, that we couldn't work four or five or 10 years ago, you and I are both virtual today, whereas 10 years ago, we might have actually had to sit down in a studio together to, to actually have this discussion. So why do we need to have all those people in, in, in cities per se, we really don't, you know, we can do an awful lot of the work we do more geographically balanced, a lot of what Ireland is doing these days is, is in the professional services sector. You know, if you take the company we have today as a professional services organization, we don't make widgets we sell people's time really is what we do. So our product doesn't need to be based in the center of Dublin or North Dublin or South Dublin even though we have geographical presence is there for our own staff, if you're always going to be thinking of investment planning around the next very large scale project around Dublin because that's where the centers of population are, your best return on investment is always going to be those because you already have the people there. So it's just about thinking of it more laterally around how to let people get on with what they need to do and reach regionally you know, they don't always need a huge amount of financial incentives they just need to give him the tools to get on with it and broadband is certainly one that'll that'll add that

Dusty Rhodes  12:35 

and what kind of other tools then that it needs to be given to live there like I'm what I'm thinking is if you had a large plot of land 100 kilometers away from a major city be that you know, kind of Dublin Galway, Limerick, cork wherever it's, it's in the middle of nowhere, shall we say, Okay, what would you do with that space in order to attract people to go

Ciaran McGovern  12:56 

there? Think about the maybe the successes that aren't just have over the last couple of decades and attracting foreign direct investment is really one that's we've had a lot of success on? What do they what do they need, they need people and they need probably greenfields, as you've just described yourself as well. What they also need, they need a planning system that will let work cannot get planned and get projects get planned. And we do have a running system at the moment which it needs further thought I'd say I think it's important that we get the right balance between given locals voice but having certainty and outcomes for very large scale investments, particularly on a regional basis is supplemented with quite got to there yet. Some of these big green fields could be to do with, I suppose climate action, it is just it could be wind farms. So we do have a lot of objections out there to win Francis as a man perhaps rightly so if they're if they're not in the right place. But we need to get that that balance regionally in terms of the grid, and where power is gonna come into it. And what it's going to be used for.

Dusty Rhodes  14:00 

Sustainability is a huge thing at the moment, but it's kind of funny in that you say, alright, let's let's build a wind farm. And then of course, it'll be but no, we don't want one there. What kind of sustainable solutions have impressed you?

Ciaran McGovern  14:13 

Well, it was we're quite heavily involved in all parts of the Climate Action Plan itself. And sustainability is at the core of that. And you know, what, what are we trying to do there, we're trying to get to a point of emission reductions and netzero over an extended period of time. So I think investment in our grid infrastructure in terms of power distribution is something that needs a lot of attention and continue will continuously evolve potential over the coming years, getting people involved locally, and in those solutions, such as, you know, electric cars and and the wind farms. We've mentioned their solar power generation PV panels for photovoltaic, Patek. So, you know, there's, there are a lot of opportunities out there in that whole climate action space, which, at its core has sustainability. How do We leave the planet in a better place for our children than we're where we are today ourselves. So it's about, I suppose executing, and all those things that are there at the moment. Similarly with with our building infrastructure and our housing stock, and making sure that all of that is sustainably built, and is efficient, and is in the right location for people as well, where they want to live and work.

Dusty Rhodes  15:24 

Because you're in there as a big part of that planning that's going on at the moment for that climate, you must have to keep yourself very up to date with what sustainable solutions are available. How do you keep yourself up to date?

Ciaran McGovern  15:38 

Well, I suppose there's a push and pull there. One side is the sort of academic thinking on it and being aware of academically what's the thinking is in terms of the best way to actually deliver solutions, we keep very close to suppliers are always advocating for new technologies to be utilized. Having a good understanding of that, and really then just trying to problem solve, how do you apply some of those solutions into the problems that clients might be actually having out there. So if you take something like the projects we had in GE, a center of excellence up in in Benihana sup in incorrupt, GA, where you have, I suppose, a tried and trusted solution of an era dorm, which hadn't been used in Ireland, it's just an example of how you can apply something that might be very conventional somewhere else to something that's very innovative in an Irish context.

Dusty Rhodes  16:31 

So tell me more about the air dome describe it to me,

Ciaran McGovern  16:33 

we were talking to Iran about a project such as the National Sports campus, where you have a very, very large building, which in its traditional sense, is a fixed structure. Because over a very, very large area, of course, it's there for very long periods of time. And it that's one approach to actually how do you cover a space and have a controlled environment and your Hazelden airflow and all of that through the building itself. But in cannot, the I suppose, when you look at the capsule that was available for development, that particular project, they would never have been able to get themselves to a position of providing a fixed structure.

Dusty Rhodes  17:11 

So essentially, the money wasn't there to do what you wanted to do. So you need to come up with a plan. So tell me about the dome, then, which was the solution?

Ciaran McGovern  17:18 

Yeah, well, this was you have options. And you look at the different options. And the different to have one might have a certain capital costs, and it has a certain running cost. And option B has a different capital costs or different running costs, as well, as you tease all those things out. We looked at the capital envelope that, you know, that the client had in that particular situation, and I suppose we all have to make our use a phrase, we had to make our brains hurt a little bit in terms of what what can we do for the solution that was needed in terms of covering that, that pitch and providing a controlled environment and a training area that that people could use every day of the year, irrespective of the weather and East male? So that was question that I'm looking at some seminar, I suppose projects internationally, where you have an inflatable air dome there, which is it's not a rigid structure, you know, air is artificially introduced into the structure and it has to be kept pumped all of the time and certain air pressure, as you walk around inside just you don't notice that the air is it doesn't feel any different to what you would normally see outside. But as kept in places all the time. That's when you try to take it all together, as well. What do we need to do here to actually cover this facility, keep it right temperature, keep it lit. Here's a solution that we can apply to that particular problem that we had there. So there's

Dusty Rhodes  18:31 

a video floating around online of that particular project. And I'll include a link to that in the in the shownotes. On your player right now, if you want to have a look at it. As we've said, The world is changing very fast and has changed very fast in the in the last couple of years. What's the biggest challenge that you are facing right now?

Ciaran McGovern  18:49 

Well, I think Ireland Inc is probably still grappling with hybrid working in particular, and getting used to how we deliver our work in I suppose a digitized environment rather than, you know, a legacy paper environment. We've all learned that we don't need to be hopping in the car to go to those meetings that we felt we had to go to or hop on planes for international travel that we used to do routinely and regularly five to 10 years ago. Some people do work well in an environment where we're human. We some people need the social contract for some like to be left to their own devices just to get on with with, you know, the work that they have to do. And it's getting that mix right in terms of recognizing how do you bring out the best in people and motivate them and you know what, there's not a one size fits all. So I think, you know, we have a hybrid working policy and within Tobin that is working quite well for us. Tell me more about it. Yeah, well, typically, we would ask staff to be available in the office two days a week when they're in a hybrid working environment, trying to recognize that mentoring and coming back to sort of passing on that knowledge to the you know, your teams is better in a face to face environment where you can imbibe information to each other without even realizing it. You know, it's the it's the watercooler discussions. It's the walking down the hallway discussion, it's a discussion over a cup of tea that very often imparts that the pearls of wisdom that you don't realize that you're imparting to somebody, we generally like to have, I suppose people who just who have just graduated to spend a bit more time in the US generally, we'd like people in that bracket to to be in the office full time. And I think that generally seems to work quite well for us, in that the average graduate who's in a rented accommodation, maybe with three other professionals who have just graduated to, you know, they just don't have the space to be able to remote work. And it works quite well, it happened. It was made to work during COVID, for everybody was, in the longer term. We'd like to see people, you know, within that bracket in the office so that they can learn and develop and grow as individuals. And then I suppose people like myself, who were, who have established relationships with their management team, and you know, we're comfortable in the virtual setting, you know, we can have less, we can have touch points that are less frequent. It's just something we're all learning at the moment. And it'll, it'll evolve in time, and we push and pull on it.

Dusty Rhodes  21:10 

So are you are you a hybrid worker? How many days? Are you in the office?

Ciaran McGovern  21:14 

I typically in the office about three, three days a week? Yeah, typically, those three days aren't always in the office, sometimes they're out on site with clients, and whatever it might be. So it flexes every week, you know?

Dusty Rhodes  21:25 

And do you find you get more done when you're working on your home days?

Ciaran McGovern  21:29 

I think if you have tests complete, you know, certainly when you're remote, you can just put the head down and get on with them. And that's fine. But it's not always that simple. You can, you know, you could do a package your work, finds that you need a touch point for somebody, if you just can't quite get a hold of them, or, you know, you go off and spend a number of hours working on a particular direction or make an assumption, and then find really, that wasn't the direction should have gone. And come back then to I won't call it wasted work, but certainly work that had to be aborted, potentially. So. So there's there's pros and cons, but it is what it's a very good for, like I said, getting transactional getting packages of work done, put the head down, get it done, you don't have you're not getting disturbed. But some people don't work well in that environment, either. Just so some people like the social contract lead to have to get up and walk around and chat to people in the office have a cup of tea and their work much better. And that's best. So there's not a one size fits all. So we have

Dusty Rhodes  22:28 

been talking about mentors. Can I ask you to stick your mentor hat on now? What is the most important lesson that you learned in your career that you'd like to kind of hand off to people as a as an example?

Ciaran McGovern  22:42 

I think it's don't be afraid to ask questions. And you might say, Well, surely everybody knows that. But not everyone else does know that. So don't be afraid to ask questions. Be curious about your work, and the learning environment, tease through options. Don't be afraid to be an individual and make suggestions. So you know, there's, there are a few points there. But as its basic premise, don't be afraid to ask questions, what are the simplest one I could ever give you.

Dusty Rhodes  23:09 

And finally, engineers, Ireland is kind of an unusual organization in that it's not a collective of companies. It's a collective of people working within an industry. So I'm just wondering, what is one of the most useful things that you have gotten out of being an engineer as Ireland,

Ciaran McGovern  23:26 

I was pushed a number of years ago to get involved in the regional committee structure of engineers, Ireland, you know, which is very much in the continuing development, professional development space. And that's really helped me to develop personally, as an individual through the, you know, working with the committee structures, you might say, Well, what have they done for me? Well, they've pushed me into a certain area, maybe that I wasn't comfortable in being at the time. And sometimes you learn more in the spaces where you're not comfortable than you do, where you are actually completely comfortable. So it's just back to the mentoring side of it again, and pushing people where they don't want to go, which is part of it, too, is not only

Dusty Rhodes  24:03 

here on McGovern, Managing Director at Tobin Consulting Engineers has been an absolute pleasure talking with you, and thank you for making the time for us today. Thanks, Dustin. If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast today, you'll find notes and link details in the show notes or descriptionari of the podcast in your podcast player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and advance episodes on our website at engineers ireland.ie. Our podcast today was produced by dustpod.io for engineers, Ireland and if you'd like more, do click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. Until next time for myself to zero. Thank you so much for listening