Tuesday 3 September 2024
Engineering is a diverse and exciting career that fosters immense creative thinking, but just how far can it take you?
Today we hear from an engineer who turned their wildest dreams into reality and took them all the way to NASA. We hear how an opportunity to attend Space Camp inspired their ‘nothing is impossible’ attitude and how engineering has supported further creative pursuits in different disciplines.
Our guest is a trailblazer in the aerospace engineering industry, but also in promoting the idea that ordinary people can do extraordinary things. She is Professor of Aerospace Engineering at Illinois Institute of Technology, Sinéad O’Sullivan.
THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT
- Early experiences that foster a ‘nothing is impossible’ attitude
- The impact of surrounding yourself with inspiring people
- Mission design and AI at NASA
- Parallels between engineering and other creative pursuits
- The role of AI and automation in the future of engineering
GUEST DETAILS
Sinéad O'Sullivan is an Aerospace Engineer. She formerly led strategy at Harvard Business School’s Institute for Strategy and Competitiveness with Professor Michael Porter and is currently a Professor of Aerospace Engineering at Illinois Institute of Technology. Formerly a Research Fellow at MIT’s College of Computing and MIT Sloan as well as a Human Spaceflight mission designer for NASA and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Her work focuses on the intersection of technology, innovation, geopolitics, and national security. She sits on the board of the European Space Policy Institute, is a frequent contributor to the Financial Times, and is Board Member of IMMA - the Irish Museum of Modern Art. She was also recently nominated as a fellow of Engineers Ireland.
Connect with Sinéad on LinkedIn
MORE INFORMATION
Come meet the Engineers Ireland Team at the National Ploughing Championships from September 17th to 19th and have a blast at our Space Station.
We will have three incredible experiences at the Engineers Ireland 'Space Store', ran by former NASA Engineer Steve Ringler - who will be down at the Ploughing Championships with our team.
You can immerse yourself in the cosmos with virtual reality adventures using state-of-the-art headsets, try on a replica spacesuit, or get a hands-on experience with real space rocks, including pieces of the moon.
Join us at Block 2, Row 11, Stand 169 for an unforgettable journey through space and engineering.
Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer.
Sinead's book “Good Ideas and Power Moves” is due to be published in September 2025.
Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.
QUOTES
"I got to spend time with the engineers at NASA, and it just put this very kind of human, normal person face on this career that seemed totally inaccessible." - Sinéad O’Sullivan.
"There are a ton of really smart engineers that are solving these problems at any given time. But the problem really, I think, lies with the bureaucracy of how we fund science, how we create policy around that." - Sinéad O’Sullivan
"I feel like to be creative, you have to let that child part grow up with you, like if you really want to be good at doing these types of jobs, don't let people tell you they're dumb ideas." - Sinéad O’Sullivan
"To be a great engineer, you need to be around great engineers." - Sinéad O’Sullivan
"My entire career has been curiosity-driven for the simple reason that if I'm really interested in it, I'm going to work hard enough at it to be successful in it." - Sinéad O’Sullivan
"Engineering is really about learning a way of thinking, and it's one that allows you to understand nuance, complexity, and difficult challenges that you can apply to literally any other career." - Sinéad O’Sullivan
KEYWORDS
#engineering #nasa #career #space #mission #taylorswift #robots
TRANSCRIPTION
For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription:
Dusty Rhodes 0:00
Right now on Amplified, how ordinary engineers achieve extraordinary things.
Sinead O'Sullivan 0:06
If you're an engineer, you can do anything else, and it nearly makes you a better thing. So for example, maybe I want to do law, but I really am excited about engineering. I would say, do engineering, because guess what, engineers ultimately make better lawyers. Learning engineering is really about learning a way of thinking, and it's one that allows you to understand nuance, complexity, difficult challenges that you can apply to literally any other career. I can do anything with my engineering degree.
Dusty Rhodes 0:37
Hello there. My name is Dusty Rhodes. Welcome to Amplified, the Engineers Journal podcast. A lot of engineering is thinking about what is possible and then setting out to make it a reality. Our guest today is an expert at doing this because she has pushed the envelope of engineering literally to its limits. As a teenager in Armagh, she decided that she wanted to work with NASA and spent many years there working on models to understand which mission design from a possible million would be the one best one today. As well as working on AI and how some tech platforms are more powerful than countries, she's also found time to set up a record company, work in a two-star Michelin restaurant and study for a diploma and wine. So if you're thinking, ‘how do I make my career dreams come true’ I think our guest today is going to have a few answers and a little inspiration for you. It's a pleasure to welcome Sinead O'Sullivan. Sinead, how are you?
Sinead O'Sullivan 1:28
I'm great. Thank you so much for having me
Dusty Rhodes 1:33
Let me start off with I mean, your career is just a dazzling array of accomplishments. Can you just kind of bring me back to the start and tell me the story of how your journey began into aerospace engineering?
Sinead O'Sullivan 1:46
Yeah, I mean, I was really, really lucky when I was younger that I got to go to space camp in Houston. They have an international camp. And so it's, it's kind of, it's something like 4045, students from 3036 different countries attend every year, and I was lucky enough to go and represent Northern Ireland, and I got to spend time with the engineers at NASA. And it just put this very kind of human, normal person face on this career that seemed totally inaccessible. And I remember coming back and telling people that, yeah, I want to be a neuroscience engineer, and so I'm going to work at NASA. And they would look at me as if I had three heads, but I had met very normal people who had done it, and it was no big deal for them. So I kind of thought, Well, why can't I do that too?
Dusty Rhodes 2:40
The following, with NASA. You get the gig with NASA. I mean, there's very, from my limited knowledge of NASA, they're either talking about going to the ISS the International Space Station, going to the moon or going to Mars. Which one of these were you involved in?
Sinead O'Sullivan 2:54
So I actually did human spaceflight mission design. So anything that involves, I mean, very simply, there's human and then non-human, you're kind of robotic mission design. I was involved in the planning of anything that was that involves humans in the loop. So if there was an astronaut involved in some capacity, that would have fallen into my my bracket. And, yeah, there were a couple. I mean, you know, any given time we were designing, you know, maybe upwards of 10 different missions. Now, not all of those missions would make it through to being fully funded and something that we would actually work on, but we would look at lots of, you know, kind of like, you know, ideate, lots of different types of missions, and then some would get further along. So for example, the mission to Mars is one that you know, is quite famous and has made it very far along in its trajectory. There were a couple that I worked on that unfortunately did not make it as far along. One of them is, is what was known as the Asteroid Redirect Mission, which is where a close fly by asteroid would be captured by this kind of robotic arm type thing as it went past the Earth's atmosphere, and it would be brought then into lunar lunar orbit, a retrograde orbit, so just an orbit around the moon, and we would then send humans back and forth to that asteroid for mining purposes. Now the reason for that being that we would get to test a lot of the mining equipment that we wanted to send to Mars in a much closer and safer way than sending it to Mars and hoping for the best, and because we also wanted to test some other human-related mission components that were safer done closer to Earth, on the moon rather than Mars. Yeah. I mean, very interesting set of projects. And NASA is doing a lot of very interesting work at any given time. And sorry, you mentioned earlier that I chose the best mission out of a million statistically. And so a lot of the work that I did. Was kind of looking at the statistics and the number of combinations of different types of missions, and trying to optimise for the overall mission design. And you're looking at hundreds of trillions, not a million. And so it becomes this, you know, we would use supercomputers to try and optimise one small part of this that and the code on that supercomputer might take five days to run, and then you realise you're a bug on day four, and you restart it. But yeah, very exciting types of work that NASA's doing, I got to play a very small role in.
Dusty Rhodes 5:35
You mentioned mining on an asteroid a great distance away from us, and it kind of almost brings that back to engineering here on Earth, because, you know, you're thinking about Greenfield sites and brownfield sites, and nothing is more Greenfield than an asteroid. It's completely barren. I mean, do you have the same kind of problems, if you like, from a different perspective? But are they at the core of them? Are they the same problems that regular engineers have?
Sinead O'Sullivan 6:07
Well, I mean, NASA engineers are regular engineers. We kind of put these people on pedestals and make it seem like it's impossible to do what they're doing. I mean, they're just regular people that went to university and got a job and have families and go to work nine to five. You know, now, the problems that they work on are a little more abstract, because they're not testing it every day. You know, they might test it once or twice in their career, if they're lucky. I mean, if you look at the Mars Rover, for example, curiosity and endeavour. I mean, you know, I got to spend time with those engineers as they were testing it live. I was in mission control as that landed. I mean, you know, seeing the face of engineers after they've worked on something 24/7, for eight years straight, and then it works. I mean, that's amazing. But these, I mean, they're still, these are very normal people doing normal engineering jobs. Um, one of the closest analogies I would have with, and I did a lot of kind of underwater robotics work for the US Navy. A lot of anyone that's working with water is essentially working with a very similar environment to space. You've got very high-pressure, temperature differentials. Stuff moves like just, it sounds simple but like, stuff just moves in ways that you kind of is hard to control. It's hard to see. Like, sensors don't work that well. So like, if you're you know, if you have this underwater robotic and you're trying to find something to shear, there's glean. Sensors just don't work that well. Everything gets wet, everything gets hot or really cold. So like the closest analogy to kind of an on-Earth environment would definitely be underwater, which is why so many of the astronauts that you see graduating from NASA's astronaut programs have come from institutions like Woods Hole, which is kind of ocean oceanographic research centre. But, yeah, no, these engineers are, are regular engineers. They're, they're building, they're building very normal stuff. And there's a reason that JCB is one of the larger lunar mining research kind of institutions, you know, these, these are not totally abstract. Some of it feels very abstract.
Dusty Rhodes 8:22
Sure, but yeah, so engineers at NASA are like engineers all over the world. Okay, very intelligent, very curious. People always looking for a solution. The problems that get thrown at you are, as you say, abstract or unusual, but the problem processing, solving problems, your thought process, the method is the same. So can you give me an example, then, of a problem that you were given where you would have used the same method to figure it out?
Sinead O'Sullivan 8:49
I can give you dozens. I mean, what, you know, what my specialisation was actually in. I came from a kind of world-renowned centre, Academic Centre which created engineering methodologies. And so the methodologies that we would use at NASA were exactly the same engineering methodologies that were used for Boeing, creating, designing aircraft. You know, I have classmates I went to Queen's University in Belfast, and I have classmates that went on to work for spirit of shorts in Belfast. They worked for Airbus. They would use the same methodologies, except the difference is that we would get to test ours slightly less often, and it would be a lot more kind of hypothetical, which is why, and sorry, the budgets for ours were extremely different. You know, the budget for a spaceflight program is infinitely larger than, I shouldn't say infinitely larger, but it's significantly larger than most kind of Earth-constrained problems. So you know, I'd say the big difference is that you have to get really, really creative in how you think about testing some of the. Stuff. You spend a lot of time modelling how you think things are going to react, the behaviour, the interaction between, you know, different levels of gravity, or, you know, you spend a lot of time modelling components and how they might interact. And then you hope to God that those models work because you've, you've just built a whole thing around that there's less of a feedback loop. So that's probably the big difference with a lot of the stuff.
Dusty Rhodes 10:26
But what about that? You say you need to get creative. How do you get creative with these problems?
Sinead O'Sullivan 10:30
Going back to this, the Space Camp thing, I went to mentor, and to be one of the kind of, yeah, the mentors at space camp, and you have these 16-year-olds, and they're kind of throwing out ideas like, why don't we just do some Hyperloop, kind of magnetic, you know, launch system? And you're thinking, or, I don't know if that's, you know, okay, sure. Why not? Or a space elevator or something like that, and you kind of think that doesn't seem very realistic or practical. But then several years later, you hear in the news that there is now a company that's being funded with hundreds of millions of dollars to do these things. And so one of the most amazing things about the space and the aerospace industry, I find, is that it actually really helps you to not lose that sense of anything is possible that you have at a young age, because it is literally and, you know, I spend so much time with people at NASA and the GERD propulsion lab and other really cool places and they spitball ideas as if they're five years Old. Like, why don't we just do this? And the adult in you says, well, budget, Paul, you know, there's a there's 10 million different reasons why that's not going to work. But you have to really, really restrain yourself and say, Actually that forget about all of those kind of other reasons the technology and that could actually work. So then you realise is the problem with a lot of our science R and D, actually, the inability to get the politicians on board, the financing on board, and that's kind of the direction that I moved in with my career because I realised that there are a ton of really smart engineers that are solving these problems at any given time that we have. But the problem, really, I think, lies with the bureaucracy of how we fund science, how we create policy around that. And it's like, if we could just give money to these people that are like, Let's build a space elevator without thinking about the technological or the other kind of constraints we would probably have 16-year-olds building really sophisticated solutions to problems that we've been trying to solve for a really long time. So I kind of feel like to be creative, you have to like as you get older, right? And you're gonna know this, everyone feels it the child, in you get smaller and smaller and smaller. The child that would have said, just do this or that, but you have to kind of let that child grow up with you, like if you really want to be good at doing these types of jobs, don't let people tell you they're dumb ideas.
Dusty Rhodes 13:18
Another part of that is going to make a bigger impression, I think, in the future. And you must have had experience of this is robots and automation, because obviously you can't send humans to asteroids or to Mars or, you know, hopefully we're going back to the moon. But robot, and I've seen a lot of stuff where they're talking about building a base on the moon, but it will be built by automated robots before a single man or woman lands there. And I find that's amazing. Have you gotten involved in this? Have you?
Sinead O'Sullivan 13:47
I haven't done anything specifically on lunar construction, but I did a lot of work on autonomous systems.
Dusty Rhodes 13:54
Yeah, that's what I was talking about robots and automation. Yeah, tell me more.
Sinead O'Sullivan 13:58
I mean, it's just, it's really incredible. I, you know, we live in an interesting period at the minute, because I spent many years working on kind of robotics and autonomous systems, um, and now we're at the stage where the difference between an autonomous system, the work that it can do, the constraints that there are in, in how we should expect these systems to work, and kind of societal expectations of an understanding of these systems are not that well understood. So, so. So, for example, there are two types of people generally, and people will kind of fall into one of these two categories. You're either somebody who thinks never gonna happen, how could, how could a robot do something that humans do? And even AI. But let's stick with robots and automation, autonomous systems for a minute, and then there are people who think these things are gonna do everything, and they're gonna kill us, and they're gonna kill everyone. And people typically fall very quickly into one of these two categories. You know, having built some of the most sophisticated autonomous systems for the Department of Defense, particularly as I mentioned underwater - I spent quite a bit of time working underwater, which is the hardest environment you could build a system in because it doesn't ever really know where it is because things move constantly under water. GPS, oh my god GPS does not work underwater. How do you locate yourself if you have a system of three different robots and they're trying to do something together, how do they know where each other is? Because of the refraction of water itself, it's actually very hard to do this quickly. One of the hardest things to do is to get underwater systems to communicate with each other. And there's a lot we can learn from underwater autonomous systems that can help us understand how autonomous cars communicate with each other when there's high traffic. There's a lot of really exciting stuff happening there. I want to ask people, whatever bucket they fall into, either 'Oh it's going to fix everything' or 'it's going to kill us all', to kind of have some restraint there and look at where they're really good at what they're doing and where they're just not as good. I kind of like to think of autonomous systems as a tool that humans use, never in a full replacement capacity, but that we can use to make our lives better and easier. That helps us in some capacity, but not in a full replacement mode and certainly not in a robot that has super-intelligence of itself that is going to kill us all.
Dusty Rhodes 17:07
I definitely want to dig into more about that because robots, automation, AI and all in that bucket is something I want to dig in with you about. But first, just a quick mention that if you're listening to the podcast and you're kind of thinking that this whole space exploration and everything just sounds amazing, and you're thinking to yourself what it would feel like to get into a rocket ship and go off to space, well, here's an invitation to come to the Engineers Ireland Team, at the National Ploughing Championships, September 17th-19th, because we have got our very own Engineers Ireland Space Station on-site! There's going to be three incredible experiences there for you in the Space Store, which is run by former NASA Engineer Steve Ringler, who will be down at the Ploughing Championships with out Team. Immerse yourself in the cosmos with virtual reality adventures using state-of-the-art VR headsets, you can try on a replica space suit - that's top of my list, or you can get a hands-on experience of real space rocks, including actual pieces of the moon. To do that, just join us at Block 2, Row 11, Stand 169 for an unforgettable journey through space and engineering. Find out more here!
Dusty Rhodes 18:19
Sinéad I can see you making a note, is it about the Ploughing Championships?
Sinead O'Sullivan 18:23
It absolutely is. It's very exciting, it's very, very cool, the space suit in particular, I spent a long time working with Space Suit designers and material engineers, oh my god they're just unbelievably complicated. I remember trying on my first space suit when I was younger and that had probably the biggest impression on me because you forget how hard it is of an environment on humans and you've got this one thing that protects you and they're just so unbelievably cool, but complicated things. So definitely go and look at the space suit.
Dusty Rhodes 19:09
Sinéad I want to move on and just ask you about how you think about life, because working for NASA is a lofty ambition, and you were talking about the kid inside you and the kid goes 'yeah of course you can!' A lot of us lose that as we get older. But you've gone and done that and worked at NASA, and I'm sure a lot of us would be like 'we'll I'd love to be a wine expert', you've done all these things I mean you're writing books, let me know how is it that when your brain works when you get a creative idea in your head you go from crazy idea to actually doing it and achieving it?
Sinead O'Sullivan 19:48
Yeah, that's an interesting question, I mean, I think you've kind of answered it in your question. And I've kind of discussed it before but like I'd say if there was something I've learned when I was younger, maybe 16 / 17, when I feel like I was making career decisions that stayed with me, is that I met people who did extraordinary things and they were just ordinary people and I think there's something about that that made me internalise the idea that there's literally nothing that you cannot do. My friends have just done amazing stuff and I see them on their journey and they're not easy things to do like you have to have grit, determination and resiliency, but nothing feels like it's impossible for me. It's not necessarily an ego thing, I am never the smartest person in a room and I didn't get the best grades in school, and people probably laughed at me when I said I was going to NASA, because I was never the top of my class. And you know, normal people can do extraordinary things. At a young age if you develop agency like 'I can go and do those things', sure it might take you a while to figure out how to do them, but nothing feels impossible. One you realise that the hard part is actually figuring out what thing you want to do if you could do anything, because there are so many things to do. And so the hard part is waking up every day and thinking 'what do I really want to dedicate the next month, six months, year, five years, to doing what is the goal?' And once you've decided on the goal, I mean, it really is just a matter of going and doing it and sticking at it.
Dusty Rhodes 22:13
A lot of a lot of engineers will have dreams, as we all do, and they say, I want to buy, build the first, you know, 50-story skyscraper in Ireland or I want to run my own firm, or I want to do something, you know, you know, crazy at the in the middle of the Atlantic, or whatever, and they have the you kind of just get stuck in a rut, and you don't move on. I've heard two things that I have found to be true, and I just want to ask you if you found them be true. Number one is, you have those crazy ideas and you think, okay, great, I'm going to do it. All right, you should try and hang out with the people that you want to be like. So if you want to be a millionaire, hang out with millionaires. All right? And the other thing is, is that when you start hanging out with the people that you want to be like they're more giving because they're ahead of you. And it's just a natural thing in life where kind of, you know, somebody who's climbing up the ladder doesn't want somebody in their way, but somebody who's behind is not important. So you're quite happy to go, oh yeah. Well, listen, if you want to do NASA, here's the thing. You go through the whole, whole steps of them, and you get all that. Have you found that also to be true in your career?
Sinead O'Sullivan 23:23
Yeah, you've nailed it. I mean, so many people don't understand that 90% of trying to do something hard isn't about the sure you need the technical skills, right? So, like, for engineering is a great example. I can't be an engineer at NASA. If I don't understand maths, like there is a basic requirement, yeah, technically. But I think once you have that, like, how many engineers are there in the world? So many, but not everyone gets to work at NASA. You know, I say that these are ordinary people, but, you know, there are few of them, and it's a very prestigious job. But I think what people don't quite understand, and it took me a really, really long time to understand this, is that most of the stuff that you learn about how to actually get these jobs and do them, is like implicit learning. It's not in a textbook. It's not written down anywhere. It's the kind of stuff that you only pick up. It's a mentality, it's how to go about things, it's how you communicate that you only really learn when you spend time with the people that are doing it. And so there's this kind of insider, outsider perspective, which is hard like it is unbelievably hard to break through, but if you spend time with the people that are doing those things, you don't even realise that you're learning how to be one of those people, and then you wake up one day and you are one of them. And there's so much of the world is about implicit learning, which is why, during COVID, when people stopped going to offices, I felt really bad for younger people, because they're not implicitly learning these things. They might be sitting doing a spreadsheet or using CAD or something, but to be a great engineer, you need to be around great engineers. When you surround yourself with people that you want to be like and you find interesting and, you know it really it's not in a weird or superficial way. I mean, just people that you like, and you find interesting, and you aspire to be, you become one of them over time. I fully believe that we are, you know, we are the sum of the people that we spend the closest amount of time or the most amount of time with. And I'm lucky that I got to travel a lot and meet really cool people all over the world. And I would like to think that I'm a sum of these very cool, interesting people. That's not to say I am cool and interesting, but it's more likely that I will be if I spend time with people like that.
Dusty Rhodes 25:50
Very, very true. I'm going to hit you now with the strangest twist in an interview that I've ever had in my entire career because we've been talking about career moves. We've been talking about NASA. We've been talking about building crazy things underwater and on remote asteroids and stuff like that. And now we're going to talk about Taylor Swift, oh my gosh. And it's all related to everything that we have been talking about. Okay, because you've written a book called 'Good Ideas and Power Moves'. Link is in the description of the podcast for you. But Taylor Swift almost embodies everything you've been talking about. Tell me about this.
Sinead O'Sullivan 26:29
I just, I listened to a lot of Taylor Swift music, and I followed her quite closely. You know her kind of personal, unprofessional trials and tribulations. I've seen her as somebody who just does exactly the stuff that I've talked about, and I've always felt really amazed by by somebody like her.
Dusty Rhodes 26:49
So give me, give me an example of something Taylor did that relates to what we were talking about.
Sinead O'Sullivan 26:53
I mean, more recently, she re-recorded all of her albums, and literally every executive under the sun. Told her not to do that. She went against a private equity firm with more than a trillion dollars behind it, which told her not to do that, and she still did it. And she there was, I mean, statistically, it was much more likely than not that what she was doing was career suicide, but she just very strongly believed in it, and she had a gut instinct about it, and it worked in her favour for lots of various different reasons. It could easily not have been done, but I just feel like, you know, that is one example of somebody who she still has that child inside of her that says, actually, this is what I want to do, and this is what I'm going to do, and this is what I believe in. And I don't care if the spreadsheets or Wall Street or whoever these, these kind of childless, soulless people tell me that I'm wrong, I'm just gonna go and do it and see what happens. And this is a path that I'm gonna take. I just think she's just incredibly young, fun, courageous, and I just think she's done a lot of really, really interesting stuff. I mean, again, she is someone who against whom the odds have been completely stacked. And she, you know, she wasn't always as successful as she is today. And a lot of people probably don't remember the years when everyone hated her, and a lot of people would have given up and been like, Okay, well, I had a good career so far, I should be thankful for that. And you know, now I'm going to retire because I've made a ton of money, and the time, you know, the time in the limelight is over for me. She didn't do that. She kind of forged her own very, very atypical path. Any executive in the music industry would not have told any of their musicians to do what she did at any given stage of that.
Dusty Rhodes 28:45
So, would it be true then that Taylor Swift's problem-solving in Taylor Swift, the brain of Taylor Swift, the way it solves problems and the way it makes decisions is something we should learn from.
Sinead O'Sullivan 28:56
I definitely think so. I, you know, it kind of frustrates me. We were talking earlier about, you know, staying and being creative. And I think that, like not a lot of people for a very long time, took her seriously. I first started to write about Taylor Swift in a more business kind of professional finance capacity several years before, you know, kind of the mainstream, oh, she's amazing and oh, she's making so much money, started to happen. And I remember because I write for the Financial Times, having an argument with my editor there trying to get a piece published about her several years ago. And they said, No, I mean, she's just, you know, she's just a musician, you know, she's just so and so. But the reality is that, and we now know she was never just so and so. She was never just a musician. But getting back to my point, which is that you kind of have to look outside of the box in terms of who's doing something that's really interesting or unique. And don't you know there's in the same way that that adults, part of you will be like, oh, never gonna work bureaucracy, politics, finance, whatever? You have to have that same remove, that same mask when you look at who is inspiring you, or where you find your creativity, a lot of people would for for most of her career, did not take her, did not view her as a serious person, in the same way that most engineers don't go to art museums to try and find you know something that's going to inspire the next NASA mission. But if you want to be creative, you have to look at people just doing weird stuff that is not on this kind of escalator of a career and learn something from that.
Dusty Rhodes 30:42
One of the things you said at the start of our conversation was it's ordinary people doing extraordinary things, and Taylor Swift is a great example of that because she's just a girl. Where was it Philadelphia, or the state of where she was from? Pennsylvania? Oh, Pennsylvania, that's it. Sorry. So she's from the state of Pennsylvania, small town, Pennsylvania, and, you know, she'd no major, like, you know, her dad wasn't a pop star and like that, but she just came from that, and she had the determination. And many people have seen the video of her sitting as a 14-year-old singing beside some river or whatever, and there was, like, nobody there, all right? And I think the same thing about Ed Sheeran, because he, again, was, he was, I mean, he was a red-headed kid, all right, not blessed with the looks blessing, all right. But he said, I want to be a pop star. And he was a terrible singer when he was a kid.
Sinead O'Sullivan 31:34
So I love this, yes, I this is my favorite example, and I actually wrote about him in the book. And this is exactly what I refer to, and Taylor Swift writes about it in her lyrics frequently. Yeah, she was never born like this, she had to work so damn hard Yes, to get to where she is today. And I fully believe that, Oh, my God, I was never if you, if you would have asked my maths teacher when I was 15 if I was going to go to NASA, they would have laughed.
Dusty Rhodes 32:03
Yes, honestly, but if you have that dream and you have that crazy idea, you will then do the work that takes to get there.
Sinead O'Sullivan 32:09
I believe that, and that's why I, you know, I saw a professor of Aerospace Engineering, and I teach a lot of undergrad engineering, and they kind of all ask me for career advice at certain stages, even after they've kind of long graduated. It's, it's always really nice to hear from from previous students. And they're always kind of, there's, there's a choice that they have to make. Should I do this thing and it's stable, and I know what it and it's a great career, and, yeah, or this other thing. And I was going to say, like, you're asking me this question because you're interested in this other thing. Otherwise, you would have said, No, you would have taken the like, and it's this isn't great advice for everybody, and I acknowledge that you know this. This works for me and it works for a small number of people, but, like, my entire career has been curiosity driven for the simple reason that if I'm really interested in it, I'm going to work hard enough at it to be successful in it. If I'm not interested in it, like there's just no way I'm ever going to be good at it, because I just every there's nothing, nobody is born with a single talent that they're good enough at to get them to the top without trying. And so it's like, what are the things I'm excited about? Because those are the things that I'm going to get off at eight o'clock in the morning and be like, Oh, I can't wait to pick up where I left off yesterday. And so it's like, do the thing that you really love. And when I was younger, I remember, and in Ireland, you know, I think so many people might have experienced this, but if you get good grades, they try to, especially in science, they try to tell you, you should be a doctor, and that's a that's a great job for a lot of people. I just never it. Just never even entered like I just didn't even think about it because I knew I just very specifically. I decided I was going to go wherever NASA and I remember at the time of school being like, okay, cool, but just go and do medicine and I just had no interest. I would have failed. I just would have failed medical school. I just wouldn't have been able to pass it. It would have been too boring for me. Yeah, that it's boring. But for me, I just didn't find it interesting.
Dusty Rhodes 34:24
But I think it's one of those things where you find the thing, or whatever you go, that's what I want to do. And very, very few people have that. A lot of people, as you say, they go to school and they go to numbers and they get the grades and they go, I'll go be a lawyer, be a doctor, you know, whatever. Be an accountant, you know, whatever. And they make great money, but our their hearts aren't in it. I find most of the engineers that I speak to are not like that, because there was always something about engineering where they kind of went. I love a really good problem. That's why they got into engineering.
Sinead O'Sullivan 34:56
Yeah, and I worked with a lot of people in finance at the minute and have done for the last few years. And I remember when I went to Harvard Business School, I had gone from working at NASA, where people, I mean, it would be midnight on a Friday night, and I'd be running code, and people would grab a few beers and watch like, you know, it was like a hobby and a job all in one and everyone was super excited about what everyone else was doing. And then I remember going to Harvard Business School and being with a ton of kind of hedge fund, private equity, investment banking type people, and they hated their jobs, and there was no part of them that wanted to ever be in the office. And I remember thinking at the time like, wow, this is the difference between, I mean, an engineer has, like I said, has the ability to make a ton of money in so many different ways that are not engineering. So you can be you can go into accounting, you can go into banking, you can be a doctor, and a lot of the time you'll be pushed into those areas. But you kind of, the engineers are the people who kind of said, I actually don't want to do that. I want to do this other thing. And they're very specific about that thing being engineering. They've chosen engineering, which is why I love working with engineers, because they choose to be there every day when they have alternatives, people that work in finance. And I mean, this is not to say that they're bad or horrible or boring. A lot of people in finance, and they're very cool, but nobody wakes up in the morning as a 15-year-old, and I cannot wait to be an accountant with engineering. You have to, you have to choose that. And there's something so amazing with working with people who are passionate about what they're doing. You can't replace, like there's no there is nothing. There's no amount of money in the world, salary wise, that you can replace working with cool, interested people with.
Dusty Rhodes 36:52
Describe to me the feeling you get when you're working with cool, interesting people, and you have this enormous problem, and then you come up with an idea. And then you fix it. What's that feeling like when you go it worked?
Sinead O'Sullivan 37:04
It's priceless to see something that you've built. Work is priceless. And people feel this at a really young age, and this is the thing that they lose, I think, when they get older, this kind of problem solving, because problems get more complex and they get more kind of ethereal, and so many more people are involved in fixing it that no one really takes ownership over it. But when you're a kid, right? And you're building Lego, and the thing works, you know, like, Huh? You know, I've been working with chefs recently, like top chefs at a two-star mission restaurant, I see the same thing. It's engineering. They see it every they build something, and there's a reason that they work 18 hour days, every day, is because they get so much satisfaction from the thing that they made than going and working. There's something about that that just, it's just money. It's like, it's, it's like doing a hobby and getting paid for it. That just doesn't get replicated in finance when your spreadsheet tells you you're gonna make money. You know, there's, there's something so satisfying about building or designing, and even if it doesn't work, because 99% of the time it doesn't work, right? And no one talks about that.
Dusty Rhodes 38:16
Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Even if it doesn't work, you've always learned something so you know, it's not a failed exercise, by by any accounts. Listen, let me wrap up our conversation just kind of looking to the future, because I think you might have a better idea than most of us. AI and big tech is what everybody is talking about. I'm wondering where what you know of AI is going to help engineers with problem-solving and decision-making. What do you see coming down the line?
Sinead O'Sullivan 38:45
I will give you a good example in biotech, which is where we kind of seen some of the impacts of AI, actually, even in terms of the type of work that I did at NASA, which is very statistically driven types of work. So let's say you have a needle and a haystack. A lot of the work at NASA that I did was trying to find the needle, which is a mission that was like the optimal mission in amongst the haystack. And we wrote a lot of code, and a lot of the stuff that I did was writing optimisation, and it's kind of a what would kind of now be considered like AI algorithms to try and find that that needle faster and faster and faster, in the same way, that in biotech, you're trying to find chemical solutions to health problems. So let's say that there, you know, there are a trillion different ways that enzymes can work together in a vaccine to do something. Well, it used to be that scientists would have to go through one by one, testing each of these to realise that it worked or didn't work. Now we have AI that can nearly do this in the blink of an eye, where we used to need supercomputers at NASA. I mean, one of my friends at the Jet Propulsion Lab has a side curiosity in in biology and run the code for the COVID vaccine the week that it was released, the week that the paper on that was released, he was able to do that on his home computer and validated that it worked. So we have this kind of shift in the computational ability to do some of the grunt work that people would have done. And I think right now that's where we are, that this has just become such an amazing tool that should, and I think will allow us to say, Okay, I used to spend 18 hours a day for four years trying to get to this point that I was able to get at in three and a half seconds using AI. Now that I'm there, the really hard stuff can start. The hard work really begins, of trying to figure out, how does this vaccine interact with complex systems? Um, how does this mission? How do we get this mission through Congress? How? I mean, the New Yorker just wrote an amazing piece on writing because people are convinced that it's going to kill the work of writers and journalists. And it's like writing is also this kind of combinatorial problem. There are 8 trillion different ways that you can write a sentence. A writer has to specifically choose one, and it's like, what are the constraints? Who is it writing for writing doesn't happen in a vacuum. You have to think about your readers and what emotions you're trying to convey. So there's this higher level of thinking that an engineer, a writer, a biotechnologist, has to make where they look at the complex world around them, the markets, financing, policy, and that's the part that I think a human is uniquely good at doing, and humans will uniquely do, but they'll just be doing it so much faster and better with the use of tools like AI.
Dusty Rhodes 42:00
Yeah, so, AI is a good thing in a short sentence.
Sinead O'Sullivan 42:04
Yes, I, you know, I there are, again, like, like, autonomous systems. People think it's either gonna kill us or make us redundant, or, no, it's a really great tool. And actually, I was giving a talk with the editor of The Economist recently, and he had a really good line, which I'm going to steal here, which is that, you know, chat GPT, for example, people, everyone's talking about chat GPT. Chat GPT is like having an intern. They do a lot of work for you, but you still have to go through to make sure that they didn't screw it off anywhere. Make sure to correct, but that intern is never going to replace the writer or the editor, but it certainly helps them so they're a tool. All of these things that we build are tools. We can decide what we want to do with them. Even, oh, my God, even if there was a runaway rogue AI that tried to kill us all, we can decide to do something about that, because we have agency, right? Like we're not stuck in a vacuum with this stuff happening to us. That's why we have policy and law and regulation. So I I'm not worried about it. I'm excited about it.
Dusty Rhodes 43:12
I'm excited about it as well. I'm a little bit tin hat about it as well. And another third of me it just keeps thinking about the animal Schwarzenegger movie, The Terminator, where Skynet eventually, yeah, there you go. So, but it's the future, and nobody knows. Listen to wrap-up today. Sinead, it's been absolutely fascinating. Is there anything else, or any final thoughts that you would like to share on engineering and stuff like that with our audience?
Sinead O'Sullivan 43:37
Yeah. I mean, here's the thing that, you know, I get a lot of younger people asking me if they should do engineering or something, or how to think about, like a career in engineering at that stage. And I guess my guiding principle, because I still make career decisions every day, like even adults have to think about them all the time. And I always think about a couple of things. One is like, am I going to have fun doing this? And I kind of optimise nearly all of my career decisions for fun, because I don't. I don't think jobs have to be boring. That's so dumb. You can having a boring job as a choice, but one that I've never made. The other thing is that I always try to choose something that gives me more optionality. So for example, medicine, my sister's a doctor. There are very few things that she can do that is not being a doctor. Now that she's done her 12 years of training, if you're an engineer, you can do anything else, and it only makes you a better thing. So for example, if you think down the line, maybe, maybe I want to do law like something totally different, right? Maybe I want to do law, but I really am excited about engineering. I would say do engineering because guess what? Engineers, it has been, literally make better lawyers. And I'll tell you one other thing, I'm a friend who was an engineer who went into law. They make way more money if they understand technology, way more money. So there's nearly, you know, I've worked with engineers that have become traders. I can tell you one thing, they're better traders. Engineering, learning. Engineering is really about learning a way of thinking, and it's one that allows you to understand nuance, complexity, and difficult challenges that you can apply to literally any other career. And so it's fun. You can be an engineer, or you can be literally anything else once you have it, but there's no way that you're not going to enjoy the process of becoming it. And I think, at the stage where you don't really know much about what you like and don't like, and careers and jobs and what I had no idea what engineers did like, none, none when I chose to do engineering. But I love the people and everyone fun that I met was always an engineer, and so baby steps, just do what you think is fun and the engineering you can use to double your success in any other career. Should you decide at a later stage that's not what you wanted to do? But yes, I there's, you know, people always ask me, if you could go back and do it again, what would you change? And like, absolutely nothing. I can do anything with my engineering degree.
Dusty Rhodes 46:30
And on that note, I'm going to say it's been hugely inspirational chatting with you if you'd like to find out more about Sinead O'Sullivan and some of the topics that we spoke about today. You find notes and link details in the description area of this podcast, but for now, Sinead O'Sullivan, thank you so so much for being so giving.
Sinead O'Sullivan 46:47
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a ton of fun.
Dusty Rhodes 46:51
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Until next time for myself, Dusty Rhodes, thank you so much for listening.